| Author | Message | ||
     Dave186 |
Made it 368 miles into a ride today and on my way home in the scorching 100+ temps I stopped for a cold drink. Bike hesitated to start so I pushed it over to the fuel pumps and topped up the tank to cool it off. Fired up and back on my way, figured the 80mph blast of air on the super slab would cool it down. 10 more miles and I was sitting under and overpass waiting for it to cool. I repeated that process until I ran into some other riders broke down as well. My fuel pump sounded like a sick cat just barely alive, instead of the usual buzz it makes when you cycle the key. I figured the heat did it in and had my dad come pick me up with my truck. Got home and the thing sounds fine and runs fine! I did a search here on badweb and seems most people blow fuses when this happens, mine never did. What can I do to prevent this? do I need a new pump? Im kinda scared to ride it since its only supposed to get hotter here for the next week! 108 forcasted for monday! | ||
| Red450 |
I've had my bike stumble and run poorly for a bit after being stuck in traffic on a hot day. I'm interested to see what others think about your breakdown. | ||
| Dave186 |
Rode 4 miles to a friends house and no issues. Pump still sounds fine. Thinking I need to find a way to keep the fuel cooler. | ||
| Garrcano |
Here is a possible solution. He has put a heat barrier on the internal left frame wall. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/646487.html?1334714989 | ||
| Thumpthump |
I put the same thermal barrier on mine with the motor still in. It has to help some but couldn't verify how much. Not much else you can do to help keep the gas cool. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I'd guess that the fuel pump is about due for replacement. The thermal barrier may help (I've got it on mine too), but your bike is ~7 years old now; I think your pump is about to go. | ||
| Buewulf |
I agree with Hughlysses. If the pump was misbehaving, it is just a matter of time. Before ordering a new fuel pump, though, I would pull it and make sure the wiring is intact. It would not be a bad idea to check all of the external wires and connections to the fuel pump as well. | ||
| Dave186 |
Thanks for the replies. My bike is an 06 with 16000 miles. It also has the comfort kit and I built a heat blanket for under the seat and the right side frame by the header. I think it blocked some airflow around the frame so I took it out while I was on the side of the road waiting. I thought the same as you guys that if the pump acted up once it's not gonna get better so I did some part number searching and came up with a pump for a 86 mustang 3.8 V6. my local napa had a made in USA Carter version and it was a direct replacement. I found several references to airtex pumps on here and other buell sites but I haven't had luck with them in cars. My only complaint with the carter pump is it is very noisy. I can feel it buzzing in my left leg if I squeeze against the frame. Rode the bike down to napa and they said the carter pumps are noisy but when it's underneath a car you don't notice. Either way if I'm not happy with it he offered to replace it or refund my money. | ||
| Dave186 |
Here is a quick video of the pump noise. Its much louder when cold, this was after a short ride around town. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3hSdGVwVL4 Took some back roads on my way home from work then hit the freeway for a few miles, no problems so far. It was 108 degrees outside when I left and 109 when I got home, hottest temps I have ever ridden in. Surprisingly I dont notice that the heat blanket under the seat is gone now that I have a tall seat. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Dave- can you please post details on the pump you used (part number, cost, etc.)? Thanks! Glad you got it fixed. | ||
| Dave186 |
I came up with two part numbers for pump kits that contain the same pump, with different O rings, strainers, etc. None of that stuff is usable anyway all you need is the pump. NFP P74036 and NFP P74122. I got the 036 version cause it was in stock. I forgot to write down the actual numbers on the pump. Price on both of them is under $100. | ||
| Buewulf |
Wow, that IS a loud pump! I could even here it over the clickity-clackity racket the Uly engine makes. At least the pump works, though. I imagine you'll get used to the noise and won't even notice it after a while. | ||
| Dave186 |
Yes its loud, and you can really hear it when the engine is cold and not clanking as much! I dont really like it so I ordered a walbro 521 pump last night. will be a while for it to get here but I will report back how it works. | ||
| Saltcityjeff |
Dave - I am glad you posted this as I was about to do the same. My bike began to exhibit the exact same issues as yours this week. I noticed last week that my low fuel sensor was no longer coming on and then this week with the temps climbing into the triple digits I started getting the "bike would die" symptoms when it was extremely hot. I noticed if I feathered the clutch and pegged the RPMs around 6000 the bike would get me somewhere safe to pull over and then abruptly die when I let the RPMs fall below 6000 like it was out of gas. When this is all going on the fuel pump does indeed sound sick, but after the bike cools it sounds normal again. Here is my question - not wanting that carter fuel pump because of the noise, and assuming the walbro isn't any quieter - does anyone have the part number for the Buell fuel pump? I have been searching the forum looking for it with no luck. I have come up with part numbers for the low fuel sensors, drain bolts, o-rings - but not the fuel pump itself. If anyone has that I would appreciate it. I'm going to tear into it to check for chaffed wires, but I am thinking it may be due for a replacement. BTW - my bike is the 06 with 25k on the odo. -jeff | ||
| Etennuly |
Jeff, My '06 had the chaffed wires at about the same mileage as yours. I got a new filter, O rings, and pick up sock from American Sport Bike. Changing them while it is out is a good idea. I have nearly 40,000 more miles on it with no more problems. I did some pictures on a thread a few years ago of the repair procedure for this wire chaffing issue. As I recall two big things with the removal and installation of the pump. One is remove the bottom rear shock bolt and jack the bike up to let the swing arm hang, that will give you plenty of clearance to get it out. Two, use vasoline or the like for lube on the two large O rings. Use a lot of care in starting the two large O rings going in. They can tear easily. | ||
| Saltcityjeff |
Etennuly - What I have read about the chaffed wires doesn't seem to match my issues - did you have the same symptoms as what I am having? I found this on the forum. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/442427.html I plan to follow this procedure. I will crack it open and investigate - should I not find chaffed wires - does anyone have the part number for the fuel pump? | ||
| Skifastbadly |
This is a very interesting discussion in that it was a puked fuel pump that stranded me in Montana two years ago in brutal heat. Here's the run down: Hot weather, we're talking high 90s. On the first day, I did about 500 miles. At the end of the day, about 3 PM, the bike started missing. Not happy, but I got into the hotel, hit the bar, and figured I'd sort it the next day. So the next morning, I take off, everything's fine. Except weirdly, the fuse was blown for my GPS. As it warmed up though, I noticed it was starting to miss again. But it seemed that this only occurred when I was down a gallon or two. In other words, if I filled up, it was fine for awhile. Could be the cooler fuel or could be the fuller tank, but in either case it fixed it immediately. Then as soon as I was down a gallon or two, it would start to miss again. I pulled over in Moscow, ID for lunch, and the thing was pissing gas out the overflow valve, even though I was down about a gallon. This continued the next day, ran fine in the morning, acted weird when fuel was used. I pulled into Missoula and my headlights stopped working. Turned out I had blown a bulb. Next day I went out of Missoula and about 80 miles out it died for good. Luckily, if that word can be used without irony, the HD dealer in Missoula also worked on Buells. They suspected a bunch of things, including the ECM, but eventually replaced the pump and all has been well since. So there is something going on with high temps and the pumps. | ||
| Saltcityjeff |
I found the pump assembly on american sport bike - DANG that ain't cheap. Hopefully chaffed wires are my issue - if not I better start getting in shape to re-assume my street corner to earn a little extra money!  | ||
| Dave186 |
The original equipment pump is a Walbro 521. Another part number I have found is 4500270. As you found, Buell only sells the assembly not just the pump. So far I have found 3 manufacturers of these pumps, Walbro, Carter and Airtex. In my research I found a spec for operating temp range. I dont remember which pump it was listed for but it said -40 to 150 farenheit. Im positive my frame has been hotter than 150. | ||
| Buewulf |
150F? Hell, that would fail in a Phoenix parking lot this time of year. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
Jeff, I broke down at the Salt Lake dealership Monday, the XB's not coping with the heat well. Pinging when I tried to start it. Eventually got it running and home where I could look at it, pump has sounded fine all the while. Serviced the bike today Plugs showed signs of too much heat. Fresh battery, plugs, and octane booster in it, lit right up tonight... Gonna run around on it tomorrow and plug in the ECM Spy to see what I see. I had my pump out to rebuild with new filters last year. I noticed light wear on the wires of my 07's pump so I cased them in a length of fuel line that I pushed into the round passage for the wires, to protect them from rubbing against the metal. If your wires aren't chaffed raw you are welcome to a bit of that fuel line, I've got plenty left over. Getting my pump out was a pain. If you can source a pump (from reading in the k.v. the Walbro seems the most common quiet fix) I'd be happy to help with the project should you want a hand. Wonder if there's a way to insulate the pump since insulating the frame may not totally resolve heat issues? Dave, thanks for posting up the part numbers! | ||
| Saltcityjeff |
Hey Mike - thanks for the offer. I have silicon fuel line from R/C Nitro cars that I was thinking of using as the insulator after you mentioned what you did. I wonder if that will hold up in gasoline when it is made for nitro-methanol? If I do get cornered in this little troubleshoot I may very well reach out to you and have you come up. Having a second set of eyes and a fresh mind can always help in sticky situations. Cheers, Jeff | ||
| Dave186 |
The Walbro pump I ordered finally came in and I switched it out after work this evening. I can change a pump in under an hour now LOL. Its so quiet I didnt think it was working! even the original pump made more noise. 10 mile run to the gas station and everything is good now. Here is a pic of the box and part number. Its identical to the OE pump.  (Message edited by dave186 on July 12, 2013) | ||
| Buewulf |
Thanks for being the guinea pig and sharing your results! | ||
| Thumpthump |
Dave186, where did you get your pump? | ||
| Dave186 |
I ordered it online. Couldnt find any local suppliers for it. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/vpn-521-1 | ||
| Dave186 |
Bad news. It did it again. Took a short ride up to some twistys to break in my new tires. Again it was 100 degrees outside, rode around town about 40 miles, fueled up at the bottom of the hill and chased a Ducati 848 up. Its a good climb up the mountain and I was running in the 4000rpm range the whole time. Pulled off for a minute to let a friend catch up, bike fired right off and made it a 1/4 mile before cutting out. Its like someone is flipping my kill switch on and off. I tried to keep it going and made it probly a mile before I gave up and pulled over in the shade. I actually have all of this on video, camera was facing rearward but you can hear it. I also noticed after reviewing the footage as soon as I pull over there is gas coming out the vent tube, with a small trail and little puddle. I could hear it boiling in the frame. This time I can hear the fuel pump but it makes odd noises. its spinning but sounds like it cant pick up fuel. Maybe the boiling gas just wont pump? Anyway, we sat there for 15 minutes then I decided to coast down the hill to get some air moving and cool it off. Even put it in 5th gear and tried bump starting it, same result its all or nothing, runs or it doesnt. If finally cooled enough and by the time I made it back to the gas station I filled at earlier was running fine and I rode the 40 miles home. Its a heat related thing for sure, I just find it hard to believe its my 2 week old fuel pump. I already hooked up ECM spy and messed around, hooked up a fuel PSI gauge and have 49-50 with the bike off. One thought I had was that the fuel pressure regulator is getting hot and sticking either too high or too low, but since it just shuts off and then comes back on that doesnt sound right to me. My other guess is maybe the cam sensor? I dont remember the tach cutting out but I was paying attention to the corners. Any other ideas guys? Im pulling my hair out over this thing. | ||
| Buewulf |
You are about at the point that the next part I would replace would be the bike.  Vapor definitely won't pump. But I have also had boiling fuel before with no adverse affects. I can't say I've heard of an instance of vapor lock being the cause of an issue for any bike anytime in recent memory. I think you might be on to something with the pressure regulator. A friend of mine had the exact same problem a few years ago on a Sportster 1200 and it ended up being the pressure regulator. The only other idea I can offer up is that my ECM went bad and caused all kinds issues (randomly cutting out was one of them) in the process without ever throwing a code. And it only ever acted up when the bike got hot at first which had me chasing red herrings all over the place. So this is a possibility. Next time it starts misbehaving, you may want to see what the signal is doing from the ECM lead that talks to the pump. A less like scenario could also be a break in the wire somewhere between the ECM and the the pump. Good luck. | ||
| Dave186 |
You are right about replacing the bike, I like the Uly but the thought has crossed my mind to push it off a cliff. I'm going to try a pressure regulator even though I hate throwing parts at it without a diagnosis first. Last night when it was acting up I did pull the fuel line off the fuel rail and stuck it in a water bottle. The pump sounded normal and in 2 seconds had it half full. Soon as I hooked it back up and built pressure it went back to weird sounds. Like you capped off the pump. Would like to rig up a pressure gauge I can watch while riding. | ||
| Reepicheep |
If you just filled up and had a hot bike, it would probably have been dribbling from the tube with or without the breakdown. You just saw it. When my cam sensor went, it started intermittent. So it would cut out for a moment, then come back, often with a LOUD backfire. You tried "rebooting" the bike after it died, right? Ignition (not kill switch) cycled to all the way back off then back on? That resets the bank angle sensor. |
