| Author | Message | ||
     Motorbike |
Guys, I need a little help here. I have the service manual and the electrical manual but I figured I will get a better idea of what's going on from you guys. My 08 XT seems to idle like crap when first started after setting overnight. After it is warmed up, it seems to run like normal. Here are a few notes on my bike and what is is doing: 1.) Has EBR ECM, otherwise completely stock. ECM has been relocated before install. 2.) 10,500 miles on ODO. 3.) DOES NOT pop back through intake. 4.) Bucks and surges noticeably around town until completely warmed up. 5.) Mileage is good, usually average 42-46 MPG. (Froggy, I'm happy with that)  6.) Almost seems like it is running on one cylinder until revved up a little (only when first started.) 7.) I just replaced the plug wires and plugs - made no difference at all. 8.) Almost sounds like ignition timing is off until warmed up. 9.) After fast idle mode, drops off to around 1050 RPM (normal) 10.) I cleaned the throttle body and plate. ( It really wasn't very dirty but this did not change anything.) 11.) All electrical grounds cleaned and star washered when bike was new. 12.) Breather is back to stock set-up but it ran fine last year this way. I did not like the breather re-route because of the oil fumes. 12A.) Have done the TPS reset procedure several times after warmed up, did not change anything for cold running. I plan to do the intake leak test when I have time and if I don't find anything, I might try the stock ECM. The bike seemed to run fine last season ( Parked all winter ). Any ideas? Could the Intake Air Temp sensor cause this? How about the IAC? I think that part is fine because the idle RPM is good. Maybe an injector is dirty? Can I run fuel injector cleaner without damaging anything on this bike? Any help at all would be greatly appreciated. This bike runs great when warmed up but is no fun at all until then. I have owned it since new and it did not always run like that, just noticed this spring after removal from storage. Thank you! (Message edited by motorbike on June 10, 2012) | ||
| Ratbuell |
Pull your IAC and clean it. There may be carbon buildup keeping it from "breathing" properly. Run out the fuel, with a bottle of injector cleaner in the trunk. Pull up to the pump to get gas, dump in the injector cleaner, and fill with fuel (this mixes it as well as possible). You may well have a sticking injector. Or, a coil that's acting up. Or, a plug wire not seated properly. Or, I've seen new plug wires DOA right out of the box. | ||
| Motorbike |
Thanks Ratbuell. I just put brand new stock wires on it to try to cure this problem. I am absolutely positive they are completely seated. I installed Magnecor wires last winter while it was stored in my workshop and it seems like the bike has never run properly when cold since I got it out this year. With that in mind, I ordered a new set of stock wires and brand new plugs but that did not change anything. I might pull the IAC and check for carbon build up, as you suggested. Are the intake seals much of a problem on 08 and newer XB's anyway? | ||
| Buewulf |
I am sure you checked, but sometimes those pre-gapped plugs are way out of spec. Just a thought. Hopefully it is a sticky injector that will flush out with some cleaner. My money is on a cantankerous coil, though. | ||
| Uly_man |
"Bucks and surges noticeably around town until completely warmed up." I had the exact same thing on my 06 Uly and it was caused by damp in the bike. The bike stood outside and if it rained, fog or a damp/dewy morning I had this. I rode till it burned off and it was fine. I then sprayed the HT leads, caps etc with ACF-50 and never had a problem after that. Try standing the bike at idle, say 5 min/fan on, until it is hot and then ride it. If it is ok that is your problem. "Run out the fuel, with a bottle of injector cleaner in the trunk. Pull up to the pump to get gas, dump in the injector cleaner, and fill with fuel (this mixes it as well as possible). You may well have a sticking injector." If you still think you have a problem this is what I used to do with injectors on cars, etc. With the Buell, only because it is easier to do, take out the stack, fit a hose to the fuel bar and the other end to something you can put cleaner in and pump up. I used a garden sprayer and it is good enough. With pressure in the system add 12 volts to one injector at a time to open the valve. Do this until you see a good clean and even spray from each injector. This works REAL well and I have done it many times. The reason it does is because you are using pure cleaner (works faster)and you can SEE that the injectors are working right. And it proves the system 100% right. | ||
| Buewulf |
using pure cleaner (works faster)and you can SEE that the injectors are working right That is a good tip. I'll have to remember that. | ||
| Motorbike |
Buewulf, I have the plugs gapped at exactly .035 inches. Thanks for your ideas though. Would a bad coil act that way, bad when cold, good when hot? Uly_man, can I check the injector flow by pulling them out, disconnecting the electrical lead, leave the key on to pressurize the pump and then applying 12 volts to one injector at a time? Or won't that work for some reason? What is ACF-50? I've not heard of it. I did notice that the problem seems worse after washing the bike, as I did yesterday. I always ride it a while after washing and drying, just to make sure everything gets completely dried out. After about 15 minutes, it ran pretty good. If I have time tonight, I will start it up cold, knowing that it is bone dry and see what happens. I will have my propane tester ready to use and scoops off so I can get at the intake seals real well. Thanks for all the ideas, keep'em coming! | ||
| Buewulf |
Would a bad coil act that way, bad when cold, good when hot? I had a Suzuki ATV that did exactly what you are describing, and it was the coil. Do check those intake seals, though. | ||
| Buewulf |
I should add that I also went through hell trying to diagnose running issues with my Uly (opposite of yours though: ran great cold, unrideable once warmed up). The ECM was the culprit even though another Bueller tested my ECM on his bike for a week with no issues. | ||
| Uly_man |
"Uly_man, can I check the injector flow by pulling them out, disconnecting the electrical lead, leave the key on to pressurize the pump and then applying 12 volts to one injector at a time? Or won't that work for some reason?" It will if the pump will stay running. I would still do it off the bike though. I have a spare stack and it just looked a lot easier to do that way. No draining the tank, no spraying of fuel around the bike (possible fire hazard) or damage to other parts of the bike. Any insulation damage to the coil, leads, caps and/or plugs will make the HT side arc to earth and cause a weak or no spark. It can even happen on a humid day? ACF-50 is a anti-corrosion spray used in the aircraft industry but also used on many other things. Spraying it in the HT leads stops water getting to them. You can use other stuff though. | ||
| Motorbike |
Thanks Uly_man. I have not had time to tinker with this problem since I originally posted but I will let you know if I figure this out. Thanks to all of you for your replies. | ||
| Motorbike |
So far, I've tried the propane test for intake leaks and found no problems with that. I also tried WD-40 to check for leaks, since I had both air scoops off anyway for access to intake seals. Went for a ride today after dumping some injector cleaner in the tank and then filling to mix it well. The bike ran well while it was hot and dry. I got caught in the rain for about the last 50 miles home and while riding through any small towns, it seemed a little jerky and uneven at steady throttle. I think I will throw the stock ECM back on and see what happens. I sometimes wonder if the bike really has a problem or is it just me? Am I expecting this thing to run smooth, when they actually never will? As stated in the original post, the bike idles and runs fine when hot. Thanks! | ||
| Dtaylor |
If you haven't already, be sure to seal the moisture out with a liberal application of dielectric grease on the insides of both the plug end and coil end of each ignition wire. Brand new stock plug wires appear to come with a tiny dab of dielectric grease in the plug boot -- not enough in my opinion. | ||
| Motorbike |
Dtaylor, I just installed brand new stock plug wires but I did not use any dielectric grease on either end. Next time I have it apart, I will definitely do that as many here seem to recommend. Thanks for your advice! | ||
| Motorbike |
Well, I re-installed my original ECM in place of the EBR ECM and took it for a spin after giving the bike a good bath. Really ran like sh!t. After I rode about 10 minutes I pulled over and did a TPS reset and tried it again. Still ran lousy. It feels like an ignition problem, rather than fuel, because it seems to be more of a mis-fire as opposed to a lean condition. (Just seat of the pants diagnosis from my mechanical experience). I wonder if the coil is cracked or defective? Anyone know how to check for this? I still haven't tried putting dielectric grease in the plug wire boots but I would have a hard time believing that would cure this problem. I can spray water directly at my lawn equipment and it will fire right up and never miss a beat. Does anyone know the PN and cost of an ignition coil for a 2008 XB12XT? Thanks for all replies. | ||
| Arry |
You changed to the stock ECM and gave the bike a good bath. It might be a good idea to keep the bike dry while your trying to isolate the problem. If you get it running good while dry, you could then try wetting it down , to see if moiture is the problem. With the EBR it ran good when warmed up(?), now (while wet) it runs bad hot or cold(?). Just reading your thread, and wondering about these points. | ||
| Motorbike |
Thanks Arry. I mentioned that I washed it so everyone would know that the engine area was wet when I left home. I guess I was not very clear in my post. It is odd though. Sometimes this bike runs just great and I wouldn't sell it for a million bucks. Other times, I would pay someone to take it. I just don't have a handle on this problem yet and it doesn't seem consistent. Until I figure this out, I will keep water away from it and see if that makes any difference. So far, it seems that moisture is causing a problem. And yes, it ran bad yesterday with the stock ECM, even after I rode it for 15 minutes. The moisture should have burned off by then. Tonight I will probably put the EBR ECM back on, take the bike for a spin and try to get something consistent to happen. Another thought, if there were a problem with any of the sensors or ECM related parts, for example, IAC, IAT or TPS, it should throw a CEL, right? Thanks! | ||
| Uly_dude |
Hey Al. The wet thing shouldn't matter if the problem only manefests itself when the bike is cold. The rain issue might be a whole separate issue(thats the way these things usually go). I just rode to duluth on Sat., rained on me 80% of the way at freeway speeds and mine didn't skip a beat. But back to your cold engine issue, anytime I hear "cold" I think of the closed loop condition. There's two sensors to look into perhaps; the O2 and the engine temp. If the two aren't in harmony, it could give you a crappy running motor until it warms up. Just my 2 cents worth | ||
| Motorbike |
Hi Greg! Thanks for the reply. It seems to mostly be a problem in open loop. It seems to run good after completely warmed up, with EBR ECM in place. Last night I checked the IAC for carbon build up and it was completely clean, just like brand new. But, then again, only 10,500 miles on the bike. I pulled the plug wires off, applied dielectric grease and re-installed. I also slid the boots down on the plug a little farther. I might be able to ride it a little tomorrow and see what it does. If any of the sensors were bad, engine temp or O2, shouldn't it throw a Check Engine Light? Thanks! (Message edited by motorbike on June 22, 2012) | ||
| Froggy |
They can, but won't always, depending on the severity of the failure. If it is reading a little wrong, the bike will be none the wiser, but if they are reporting values way out in left field, you will get a CEL. | ||
| Uly_man |
"If any of the sensors were bad, engine temp or O2, shouldn't it throw a Check Engine Light? Thanks!" "They can, but won't always, depending on the severity of the failure. If it is reading a little wrong, the bike will be none the wiser, but if they are reporting values way out in left field, you will get a CEL." Its just my opinion but the CEL system on this bike is near to a waste of space. I had two problems with my 2010 bike and it did not show either. One was a faulty side stand switch, which I proved, and a "once the bike got hot" running problem that after the data, from a logged run, was sent to HD who said was a faulty O2 sensor. I also had the subframe grounding and the wet/damp in/on the engine problems on my 06 bike and they did not show up on the CEL either. A TPS reset MUST be done after a ECM and/or TPS sensor is replaced. So HD say. | ||
| Motorbike |
Thanks Froggy and Uly_man. Is there a way to test them? I will look in the Electrical Manual, maybe it explains. Or should I just ride it and not worry until the CEL comes on? Thanks. (Message edited by motorbike on June 21, 2012) | ||
| Motorbike |
I read a little bit of the Electrical Manual last night and it explains a little about Open Loop and Closed Loop operation. Basically, the system is in Open Loop until the engine reaches operating temp and then it goes into Closed Loop. It is at that point where the 02 sensor becomes part of the engine controls. Before that, when the engine is cold, there are preset values to control the fuel and timing to get the engine started and warmed up. If all of that is true, the 02 sensor should not affect the cold running issues. BUT, if the temp sensor is flaky, I suppose it could put the ECM into a Closed Loop mode before the engine is actually warmed up. I really don't think there is a problem with the temp sensor because the engine goes up on fast idle when first started cold but does not fast idle when started hot. That part seems normal to me. I am taking 1/2 day off today and will go for a nice ride and see what happens. Thanks. | ||
| Etennuly |
I had a similar wet only problem that took me weeks to find on my '06. The Cam Sensor wires come out of the bottom center of the cam/crank cover on the right side. They then go down under the chin faring to the area that all of the wires go through near the front drive pulley. Where the CS wire bundle was passing over the edge of the chin faring it had worn a spot through the protective sheath and through into the wires, very minimally. Only when it got wet enough that the electro juice would follow the water to ground out across the plastic faring between the wires, would it sputter. After some weeks of trying to find it, the bike finally started dying five minutes into a ride in the rain. It would fire up in a couple of minutes, run for five minutes and die again. When it was dry it ran perfectly. I heat-shrinked the wires, taped them, and moved them to where they were no longer across an edge. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
2008 bikes have the sensor off of the front of the engine. I have always thought that it was a bit vulnerable to road-flak from the front tire. Perhaps that is the issue here? |
