| Author |
Message |
    
Paul56
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2011 - 05:56 pm: | 
|
I adjusted the primary twice early on in its life, maybe once since 80k miles. At the last service (100k) it didn't need to be adjusted.
The relative lack of maintenance required on this bike was, and is, a huge plus for me. I work on machines all day. The less I have to work on my own the more time I have to ride. |
Zac4mac
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2011 - 10:25 am: |
|
All this grief over a primary chain?
C'mon, there's a huge window where it's adjusted right.
Not so tight it compromises the bearings on either end.
Not so loose it hits stuff. easy peasy
Neither my 1125R or my Uly are bad upkeep-wise but the maintenance on the Uly is simpler, quicker to do and cheaper than the Helicon.
I have yet to rotate the engine on the Uly(2009 XB12X - 24.4k miles) but have done that maneuver twice on Loretta(2008 1125R - 27.7k miles).
Also, the Uly is my daily driver anymore, primarily due to comfort and lack of needed maintenance.
Zack |
Dr_greg
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2011 - 10:53 am: |
|
All this grief over a primary chain?
C'mon, there's a huge window where it's adjusted right.
Not so tight it compromises the bearings on either end.
Not so loose it hits stuff. easy peasy...
I'll have to agree. In both my '06 Ulys (a total of 90,000 miles) the primary never caused me a bit of trouble. Checked it a few times, but IIRC I never even had to adjust it.
Also, the Uly is my daily driver anymore, primarily due to comfort and lack of needed maintenance.
Ditto here.
--Doc |
Maximum
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2011 - 12:27 pm: |
|
I concur with Zac too. With two Uly's (one over 50,000 miles) and an 1125r....if I had to sell a bike, the 1125 would have to go. But I don't have to sell one...so I am keeping it because it makes me look so sexy!  |
Kenm123t
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2011 - 03:16 pm: |
|
If your primary cant be adjusted and stay that way for more than a few miles you have other issues in the primary drive. The primary get it Primary issue should be wear on the wear pad.
The only difference between the 1125 cam chains and nearly every other chain adjuster is the wear on the pad and how it is compensated for. Knowing some ones phone # has no bearing on getting the adjustment set properly.
Set it when engine is still warm and at least 4 points of the clutch basket rotation. 90 degrees is what the factory uses. What your looking is the min and max run out at near operating temp. Then calculate the average points
Now you can use micro chips Froggy.
If it were that poor of a design it wouldnt have been around since 57. Inablity to understand technology doesnt mean the technology is bad.
Stealth 'SR71 all slide rule planes Evaluate. Adapt and Overcome ! learn it live it to Quote Court its the Indian not the arrow lol  |
Froggy
| | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2011 - 03:08 pm: |
|
quote:If your primary cant be adjusted and stay that way for more than a few miles you have other issues in the primary drive.
Right, because every XB and Blast that I've owned has been the same, so all of them must have this same issue. $20 says the XB motor I'm building will have the same flaw.
quote:The only difference between the 1125 cam chains and nearly every other chain adjuster is the wear on the pad and how it is compensated for.
And the XB/Sportster motor still have a terrible design that even the big twins have compensated for but not completely eliminated.
quote:Knowing some ones phone # has no bearing on getting the adjustment set properly.
Doesn't matter, it still shows that I have had nearly a dozen sets of hands try and do it with minimal success. Again, can't fix what was never intended to work right.
quote:Set it when engine is still warm and at least 4 points of the clutch basket rotation. 90 degrees is what the factory uses. What your looking is the min and max run out at near operating temp. Then calculate the average points
Slaved over it for hours trying that, no dice.
quote:Now you can use micro chips Froggy.
Wish I could, it surely would solve the issue.
quote:If it were that poor of a design it wouldnt have been around since 57
Must be why everyone else has moved on. Do the Harley clones like Victory even use a primary chain?
quote:Inablity to understand technology doesnt mean the technology is bad.
I do understand it, which is why I know its bad.
quote:Stealth 'SR71 all slide rule planes Evaluate. Adapt and Overcome !
And when they finally declassify its computer designed replacement, you will be in awe. 
Just because you can design something doesn't make it a smart design, regardless if it was done in CAD or on paper. |
Tootal
| | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2011 - 05:45 pm: |
|
Victory has a great set up on it's primary. They use a gear drive. The center gear has a compensator element that allows slow going without being jerky. If I remember correctly they used helical gears so it's quiet. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2011 - 05:59 pm: |
|
*shrug*. I'm on my third Buell (M2, XB9SX, XB12X) and I never had any problem setting the primary tension and having it last for at least the entire duration of the primary fluid change interval (generally 10k miles at a time). |
Guell
| | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2011 - 09:51 pm: |
|
yep, no issues on my tuber, or my xb now. Dunno whats difficult about setting primary chain tension |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2011 - 10:45 pm: |
|
Sounds like you or someone over tightened your primary chains Frank. Once that occurs, and they've been run hot, they'll never be right.
If you want to badmouth XB's, at least find a credible reason. Your primary experience is singular, as it seems is your opinion of the ease of valve adjustments on the 1125. |
Ratbuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - 08:21 am: |
|
I'm going to have to agree with Blake here. I suspect someone botched an adjustment in the past, damaging your chain. It still functions as a "chain", but now has tight and loose spots in various places. They are designed to have some variance, but if you damage it and the variance (from loose to tight) is too great, it can throw your adjustment math off-base and it'll "never be right".
I think I set the adjustment on my S2 when I built the top end. What was that...07? 08? I also set it every fluid change on the Uly - 5k miles. I've had it go loose one time, and that was because the hamfisted mechanic (yours truly) didn't lock the locknut tight enough.
Or my Quest II caused it.
Or maybe it was my D616's.   |
H2opatrol
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - 11:57 am: |
|
Exactly the reason I added a profile pic |
Prowler
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - 12:00 pm: |
|
I get the impression that Froggy (and I don't know this guy at all, other than his posts) is a bit mechanically challenged and since he's a computer guy, feels that if it (his Uly) had been computer controlled, everything would be OK. Please explain how it is that adding electronics has helped anyone but the service people that are paid to work (endlessly) on these electronic issues. In my opinion, if it's mechanical, it's pretty much out there and easy to see and understand. My ownership of mechanical/electrical things has shown me that electronics are usually the first things to fail and are usually easier to replace than to fix (at great cost). Primary drives on a Buell could not be simpler to adjust. If you can't figure it out, give it to someone who can (like the ten year old kid down the street that fixes his own bicycle)......was that a little cruel, oops, sorry. Don't take this stuff too seriously you guys, it's only a scooter.
(Message edited by prowler on December 06, 2011) |
Froggy
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 08:22 pm: |
|
quote:Sounds like you or someone over tightened your primary chains Frank. Once that occurs, and they've been run hot, they'll never be right.
My Uly was only ever done by dealer techs, my Lightning was done by many including me, my Blast was only done by another dealer. Three bikes that I've owned with the same issue, and I know different hands touched each. Then other XBs I've ridden were all the same. I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe there are this many mishandled primary chains out there, it screams design issue. I bet if funding permitted Erik would of adapted something else like gear drive or even a self adjusting system.
quote:If you want to badmouth XB's, at least find a credible reason.
I'm not badmouthing the XB, I am just badmouthing the crap method of getting power from the flywheel to the clutch, and the maintenance associated with it. That belt open primary that Trojan did sure looks great, shame about the price tag!
quote:Or my Quest II caused it.
Or maybe it was my D616's.
Probably the orange luggage
quote:I get the impression that Froggy (and I don't know this guy at all, other than his posts) is a bit mechanically challenged
I'm sure no pro, but I've learned a lot on here over the years, and I am building an XB from nothing in my spare time in my garage.
quote:since he's a computer guy, feels that if it (his Uly) had been computer controlled, everything would be OK.
If it was computer controlled, it would be of a more modern design, and less prone to failure and maintenance. I don't see how you would really add computer control to the primary as you can make it a fixed set of gears with no variables, not requiring anything to be monitored. That said, a computer controlled adjuster on the current design would eliminate guesswork and maintain the correct level of tension, but even that is overkill.
quote:{lease explain how it is that adding electronics has helped anyone but the service people that are paid to work (endlessly) on these electronic issues. In my opinion, if it's mechanical, it's pretty much out there and easy to see and understand.
Electrics overall are more reliable, and easier to fix in the event of a failure. They either work or they don't, and when they don't they often give you information to help you troubleshoot. Carb bike - Randomly starts sputtering, randomly dies. Good luck fixing that. FI bike - randomly starts shuddering, randomly dies - throws a trouble code for insufficient fuel pressure, either you are low on gas, or your fuel pump went on vacation. I had both happen to me, the carb bike was my Blast, FI bike was my 1125CR. My Blast will randomly run like crap and die, never figured out the cause, ended up cleaning or replacing the entire fuel system. On my 1125CR, luckily I was low on gas, it just wasn't running right on the sidestand, but it had enough gas to run upright, then it died on me a mile later on my way to the gas station.
I find electrical things easier to understand, everything is binary, unlike mechanical things with deal with moving parts, varying tolerances, multiple points of failure, and (I know I'm going to get reamed for this) often the inability to quickly and easily make adjustments without tools or sometimes physically swapping a part. Going for a cruise on the slab? Press a button, your suspension will soften, windshield will raise, throttle response and fuel mapping adjusted to optimize cruising and fuel economy. Annoying squid on your tail? Flip it back into sport mode, suspension stiffens, windshield lowers, unlock full potential of the motor, all without having to even having to stop. On most bikes you would have to hop off, break out the flathead and start dialing all the suspension knobs in, manually readjust the windshield, and if you have a carb you are SOL unless you have some crazy bike that grants instant access to the jets.
The Ducati Multistrada does that (not sure about the windshield part), and it works great.
There are many cars these days that do similar too, Ford even tried (got shot down due to the CARB) to make it so your car has two modes, one that makes it a great street legal daily driver, then track mode to unleash the beast. BMW has a similar button on I believe the M5 that lets you instantly gain 100HP by pressing the button.
In whole, replacing mechanical parts with electronic parts makes vehicle ownership much more pleasant. Just because you don't understand it or know how to fix it doesn't mean it is bad (Where did I hear that?)
quote:Primary drives on a Buell could not be simpler to adjust.
The thing is, that statement isn't true, the point of my posts is that it can be easier to adjust, or not require adjustment at all, ala the 1125R and pretty much every other bike on earth. |
Bikelit
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 09:57 pm: |
|
The poor Primary Chain.
In use for over hundred years now, it has been an example of outstanding engineering. Used in most motorcycles in the pre-unit days, it has soldiered on in spite of newer, better methods.
Now on it's last legs, it's ripped as a terrible design that's too much trouble.
Probably true, but it still gets my respect.......... |
Ian03xl
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 11:14 pm: |
|
yep definitely more trouble than a gear drive but, still less trouble than an 1125 valve adjustment. That is what this is about right?
Froggy the chain is not the best design but, it's definitely not as bad as you make it out to be. It's simply not necessary to adjust the chain after only a few miles of riding as you imply. |
Motorbike
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2011 - 11:30 am: |
|
Froggy, Nothing you could ever say would make me dislike my XB12XT. If it gets to a point where I can't get parts to fix it anymore, I will feel bad, but will try to part it out, buy something else and move on. Nothing's perfect, not even your 1125's. Thanks. |
Tiltcylinder
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2011 - 12:55 pm: |
|
I was kind of hoping the motor factory would go gear driven in the primary, when they eliminated the transmission 'door' (bane of my existence for a while) in the design. A three gear setup would be pretty simple to implement... although it might be noisy (ever ride an ironhead at speed?).
Remember... it's not rocket science.
Get hot, find tight spot, adjust, secure... forget for two or more oil changes. Most folks skip one or more of those steps! If you have Blast, do it by ear or get an XB primary cover. The ear method has been working OK for me so far. |
Guell
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2011 - 01:32 pm: |
|
Why would you need access to jets on a carbed bike? It's called twisting the throttle. You might like a Japanese bike, sewing machine like characteristics, some neat electonic crap on them and they are usually pretty reliable and soulless, sounds like that's what you want. |
No_rice
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2011 - 03:40 pm: |
|
every buell i own/have owned has been for the most part maintenance free.
the 08 1125r is due for a valve check.
my original 03 xb9r is torn down completely for a main shaft bearing that was taken out by bad swingarm bearings that im sure got jarred around years ago when it end for ended in a wreck. thing still ran like a charm, and shifted great.
i think ive adjusted my primaries once or twice... thats it. changed the fluid a couple times and good to go, on with its abusive life.
5-10 minutes max. pull the plug, install plug, dump in a quart and close it up. original clutch thats been trying to hold n2o most of its life and lots of wheelies and track days.
you couldnt hardly ask for a less labor intensive bike then an xb. they require fluids and riding most the time.
but then again, all an 1125 needs is a valve check. |
Uly_dude
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2011 - 04:06 pm: |
|
Let's face it, that motor is a decsendant of the dinosaur age. Erik was able to change/improve a lot of things about it, but there were just some things too big to tackle without having to go with a whole new motor - which he did eventually. Probably why HD dumped Buell, there wasn't one thing Harley left on it! And though this motor was very much improved with EFI, different gears, different clutch, crank pins, etc., there's a reason why it'll only rev up to 7K rpm. It's a very old design. But in a way, that's what gives these bikes their charm. My adventure touring bike has tractor like characteristics like none other, handles like a dream AND it still goes pretty damn fast. For all it's imperfections, I still like it. |
Buellerxt
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2011 - 06:58 pm: |
|
+1 Uly_dude! |
Needs_o2
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2011 - 07:15 pm: |
|
Froggy, the problem with computer controlled systems is that it requires more parts to make the adjustments to whatever system they control. So, you end up with more systems and therefore more parts to have potential problems with. No matter how perfect the software is , one still has to deal with the physical world of moving parts, until we find a way to the land of TRON. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2011 - 11:06 pm: |
|
Uly dude,
>>> there's a reason why it'll only rev up to 7K rpm. It's a very old design.
The reason is piston speed. It's a long stroking engine. Nothing old design about that. It's more efficient and offers improved low speed power. There is no free lunch.
I do agree that had Buell not been killed off by Harley, Erik and associates would likely have pushed for further major development in the engine, possibly a gear driven primary. The XBRR primary did include a rub block for the upper race of the primary chain, much like what you see on automotive cam chains. They also experimented with a single row chain and sprocket, but I think it was found not quite up to the massive sledge-hammer like power pulses and heat of that racing engine.
I so dig that engine. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2011 - 11:12 pm: |
|
Frank,
No one else that I know has experienced the issues you describe with the frequency you claim. Thus for the life of this discussion board (over 13 years now), I think we can state definitively that the primary chain drive is not in any way problematic as you believe.
What are the symptoms that you deem indicative of an out of adjustment primary chain?
I've never noticed anything when any of mine have been on the loose side. I'd think you would notice if the chain developed out of tolerance stretching; the tightness then looseness would likely make for some severe vibration at resonant engine speeds. |
Desert_bird
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 05:48 am: |
|
Seems the discussions brings up two age-old approaches: that of the engineer-gear head, which seeks mechanical efficiency and simplicity, and the other of the techno-gear head, that seeks increased sophistication and technical complexity.
Both approaches have their intrinsic advantages and challenges. The differences of approach highlight that fundamental paradox of mechanical engineering: producing a machine that is both simple and robust, but also sophisticated (adaptable) enough to perform multiple tasks equally well in a variety of different environments. For me, it's what makes the study of natural (carbon-based) machines so freakin' fascinating. Somebody did something very right (even though at times a sore-back has me wondering . . . )
Until the dawn of Tron, the XBs represent one unique way to integrate the two appraoches in an effective platform. I venture to say they do a reasonably- good job of mixing the best - and worst - of John Deere with a modern beemer.
Just stating the obvious? Perhaps. But I'm dense
DB
(Message edited by Desert_bird on December 10, 2011) |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 11:34 am: |
|
Froggy,
I'm only a bit curious what has made you think your primary was out of adjustment. I check mine when I change the primary/tranny juice. If it isn't banjo tight or floppy then all is well. As for letting "techs" near your bike, that is a whole other matter. Do you really believe they even have a clue what they are doing or for that matter even care? When was the last time that a "Tech" came up to you before working on your bike and said, "My name if Joe Tech and I'll be lovingly working on your ULY ". That'll be the day for sure. More likely the tech is thinking, "I've got five minutes until this crappy day is over so that gives me 30 seconds to do this loser's freaken Buell" or "30 ounces is close enough, he'll sure as hell never know".
(Message edited by electraglider_1997 on December 10, 2011) |
|
