| Author | Message | ||
     Terrible1one3 |
Froggy, I am a technologist. I like cool new stuff. I just believe that throwing a battery in something is not the answer. We all know first hand how batteries deteriorate (think of the Lithium Ion batter in your Cell Phone or Lap Top computer from new to a couple years of use. Battery technology isn't where it needs to be to be throwing huge batteries in stuff and calling it good. It's not the answer. Plus if you look at the inverse measurement of mpg you get a much better look at efficiency and the impact. Take this excerpt from wikipedia: A modest improvement in fuel economy for a relatively inefficient vehicle can provide greater savings in terms of financial cost to the driver and environmental impact than a proportionately larger increase for a more economical vehicle. This is most intuitively demonstrated using the inverse scale — gallons per mile or liters per kilometer. If a driver who travels 15,000 miles (24,000 km) a year switches from a vehicle with 10 mpg to 12 mpg average fuel economy (0.10 gallons per mile to 0.083 gallons per mile), 250 gallons are saved. A similar 20% improvement in exchanging a 30 mpg for a 36 mpg (0.033 gallons per mile for 0.027) vehicle saves only 83 gallons. Because mpg and fuel consumption are inversely related, both can be misinterpreted.[6] Gallons per mile is more useful than miles per gallon when comparing the fuel consumption of different cars, while miles per gallon is more useful when comparing the fuel efficiency of different cars. Fact of the matter is getting garbage trucks that run about 3mpg to increase even a little in the area of mpg renders huge savings in consumption, where going from a 50mpg motorcycle to a 65mpg motorcycle is negligible at best. Either way thread hijacked. | ||
| Uly_man |
So why use a bike? Apart from the many other practical/fun reasons you can run a machine that is faster, off the line than almost any car and could top out at 180 MPH plus. All for the same sort of money you would pay for a set of rubber and a service on a car in the same class in one year. It would also cost you something like $400,000 to buy. And the "Green fuel" thing is something of a con anyway. Here in the UK the government want us to use this sort of thing and thats good. The problem is that once you start using it they then start to tax you more on it and things like having to pay to park a bike is just taking the piss. Once upon a time a small bike was a cheap way of getting around. Big ones have always cost some as the insurance and upkeep are only worth it for what they are good for. Even if someone developed an engine that run on "fresh air" the government would find away of charging/taxing you on it. | ||
| Pons |
I like the Zero about as much as I liked the automatic FJR Yamaha couldn't sell. | ||
| Buewulf |
I wouldn't have any issues replacing my ICE with an electric bike so long as I could: 1) Get around 150 miles (real miles, at 80+mph sustained) on a charge, 2) Recharge the battery (or exchange it) away from home in 20 minutes max. 3) Have at least four gears to select from. I can even live with the hidden costs like replacing the battery pack every 50K miles or so as long as it maintains at least 90% of its performance over that period. (Just an illustration of my tolerance. I have no idea how long the battery packs will truly last.) The technology has a long way to go before it can meet my needs as a primary stablemate, and I suspect those capabilities are decades away. If someone made one that could reliably make my work commute to and from on a charge, and if I could convince my wife that I need another motorcycle solely for commuting because it gets infinity mpg, I would consider it. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
There isn't a one of us here who wouldn't rush to buy a new ECM from EB.R if they claimed you'd get 100 mpg. Oh, except for Terrible1 since it wouldn't help society out in other than a minuscule amount. I would also wager that had Buell offered two grades of ULY back at the end of 2005 and one was a 125hp model that gave 50mpg and the other model was 105hp that gave 100mpg that more of the 100mpg bikes would have sold. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
By the way, a Prius not only gets outstanding mpg (comparatively speaking), it is just a cool car all around. My 2010 that I bought recently with 24,000 miles on it, uses 0W20 synthetic oil that only needs changing every 10,000 miles. One of these years I'm going to to buy a pure electric car. One hybrid for trips and one electric for around town use. Right now we have two hybrids. Once you get one you are hooked and would never buy anything less. Why anybody puts up with a car that idles while at stop lights is beyond me. Oh yes, and sure I'd have bought that 3rd model ULY that Buell didn't offer. You know, the one that dyno'd 125hp and gave 100mpg  (Message edited by electraglider_1997 on November 09, 2011) | ||
| Beached |
How many of you guys really care about the Uly's mileage. I have gotten worse mileage than my Focus at times and other times I have gotten better mileage than my manual says. The secret is in the right hand. All these times it brought a smile to my face. I just like the bike and I bought it for the fun value, it does not disappoint. If I had the money I would love to buy a Zero as a second bike just to have fun by adding stealth to the equation. I guess that makes me poor Harley material. | ||
| Nobuell |
I believe that the zero would work as a commuter bike for me but the price is to high. It is much cheaper to get a smaller standard motorcycle that gets good mileage. There just does not seem to be a pay off when strictly looking at the numbers. Perhaps it will be more palatable down the road if they can get the price down. During rush hour in Chicago on the express ways it is common for the traffic to be moving in excess of 80 mph. The Zero would be wide open just to keep up! | ||
| Froggy |
Batteries used in hybrids and electrics are not the same as batteries in consumer electronics. The hybrids and electrics are of higher quality design and are built to last. The Zero has an estimated battery life of 300,000 miles, good luck getting that kind of life out of anything, hell I bet the Zero will rust away first! Do a search online for people needing batteries replaced on their hybrids and electrics, they are extremely rare, and usually because of a warranty issue not wearing out.
I never argued against that. Either way, a 20% increase is a 20% increase. Increase a Uly's fuel economy from 50mpg to 60mpg (20%), you change your cruising range from 200 miles to 240 miles.
They are so freaking fun!
The gov will always find a way to tax anything they can, that shouldn't deter you from exploring something different. Just part of life.
Since I don't know you, does that mean you like it or not?
Those requirements are just unrealistic at present. The power requirements to maintain 80mph are enormous, doing quick math in my head you would need a battery larger than the one in the Chevy Volt to pull that range off. Charging is getting there, it could be doable if you have enough voltage, but it isn't something that would be safe to do.
That really won't be necessary, these aren't crap batteries like in your phone.
I will have to disagree with you on that, had few 07's as company cars a few years back at my previous job, I absolutely hated the thing. Single worst car I have ever driven, period. Dangerously slow, it couldn't merge onto highways safely, the sound of the motor was annoying, the brakes had no feel, handles like a sinking boat, traction control was a joke (Oh your slipping? Cut all power!), the motor would shut off at the worst times and never when it made sense. Terrible experience overall, not to mention cheap interior, doors that cave in when leaned on, and the annoying rear spoiler that blocked view from the rear mirror.
Every vehicle I have ever owned has had that idle shut off feature, it just isn't automatic. I use it on the Buells all the time. (Message edited by froggy on November 09, 2011) | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Froggy, They are not dangerously slow. When you stomp the accelerator to the floor it adds the electric motor to the ICE and it hauls ass. Sure it isn't a powerful car but it sure sips the gas. The generation 3 is nicer than the gen 2 models that you drove and the engine is bigger. It also has 3 modes: EV, ECO, and Power. We love Prii. | ||
| Buewulf |
Those requirements are just unrealistic at present. That was my point.  I just couldn't realistically use a current electric bike as a replacement for ICE propulsion. By the way, a Prius not only gets outstanding mpg (comparatively speaking), it is just a cool car all around My experience is consistent with Froggy's. I was stuck with one for two weeks once while my regular car was in the shop, and I couldn't wait to give it back. It wasn't worth the gas mileage. There just does not seem to be a pay off when strictly looking at the numbers. There isn't. At this stage, Zero and others have to rely on people buying them because they think it is cool or because they really want to make a difference with respect to emmissions / oil dependency. It cannot be justified financially. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
If somebody like Warren Buffet gave me the choice of taking a 2012 Zero or another ULY I'd probably take the Zero. If it was on his dime that is. I already have a ULY and it sure would be fun having that Zero for putzing around town with. The ULY might get really lonesome fast. | ||
| Froggy |
The flat tire I got when trying to merge on the Saw Mill Parkway during rushour and being forced off the road due to not being able to get into an opening I would of made if I was driving the 2003 Chevy Cavalier piece of crap would say that yes, it is dangerously slow. It's 0-60 time is worse than a loaded semi going up a steep hill. I know it isn't a performance car, but it fails to meet the benchmark of standard day to day driving. Toyota should of recalled every single one and replaced them with Volts.
Since when did they get EV? Last I heard it was disabled to meet EPA specs, same with EV mode on the Volt.
No, I was stating that you might as well have asked for a propeller and wings, and a hover mode.
Numbers make sense to me. Say I drive 15k miles a year Uly - 50MPG, Zero - Infinity. Gas $4.20/gal Uly - $1260 a year for gas, $157 a year to charge Zero. Uly - $1500 year maintenance, Zero - $400 The numbers add up stupidly fast, the Uly costs a fortune to run, the Zero has no real costs. If you like pissing your money away, go right ahead | ||
| Buewulf |
the Zero has no real costs. I think it is more fair to judge a Zero against an equally slow and low-powered machine like a CBR250 or something. If both bikes were free, then the math makes sense. But we aren't talking about just the running costs. I agree that against a Uly or other high maintenance bike, there is a good case to be made for it as you have clearly illustrated. It is more of a wash against the Honda. This also assumes you don't place any value on an ICE motorcycle's additional capabilities (like range or quick-charging at the local Exxon). It would make even less sense to replace a CBR250 you already owned outright with a Zero in an attempt to save money. | ||
| Froggy |
Equally slow? Then why pick a CBR250? The Zero S has a five second 0-60 time, which means it will keep up with the XB to highway speeds. Hell given its instant torque and lighter weight, It wouldn't surprise me if it can smoke a Uly till it shifts out of first.
Even with them not free, it makes sense. They have similar MSRPs.
What is involved with maintaining the Honda? I'm sure it has fluids to change, but what about valves to adjust, cables to tighten, sensors to reset?
Touring on a 250 is about as practical as touring on a Zero. Both bikes can do it, they just aren't built for it.
Well it wouldn't make sense to buy a 20 year old bike these days for daily use anyway. | ||
| Eryngium |
I find it very interesting that electric bikes elicit such a powerful negative response. I'm guessing there are plenty of other forms of transportation folks don't want, but they don't spend so much time pointing out their faults (real or perceived). Why electric bikes? | ||
| Terrible1one3 |
Because I dont care what mpg my bike gets. It's easily good enough, no reason to sacrifice anything to avoid my 10 dollar fill ups. Now my suburban... that is something I want to be more efficient. All in all I dump on electric bikes because they are a solution lookinh for a problem, and I have to drive my Cruze Eco to not want to burn down the gas station. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Probably because ICE powered vehicles might be something they'll find difficult to unload unto someone else when electric becomes mainstream. The auto industry in general has been loath to change from ICE power but have had little choice because of Prius sales. Why is it that the U.S. car industry always has to play catch up? Even Honda's latest Insight is a half assed effort at being a Prius clone, looks just like a Prius but the mpg isn't close. The Chevy Volt is probably an awesome car but how many folks can afford a $41,000 car when the base Prius is only $23,520? Froggy, My 2010 has 3 mode buttons and one is EV. Copied from Wikipedia: EV mode When the vehicle is turned on with the "Power" button, it is ready to drive immediately with the electric motor, while electric pumps warm the engine with previously saved hot engine coolant[74] before the internal combustion engine is started. The delay between starting the car and starting the internal combustion engine is approximately seven seconds. A button labelled "EV" maintains Electric Vehicle mode after being powered on and under most low-load driving conditions. This permits driving with low noise and no fuel consumption, and is advertised as a quiet option for short journeys, for example in residential areas at night, in the Asia manual.[citation needed] The car automatically reverts to normal mode if the battery becomes exhausted. Prior to the 2010 model, the North American model did not have the "EV" button, although the "EV" mode is still supported internally by the Prius Hybrid Vehicle management computer.[citation needed] | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Zero to 60 mph times for Prius 2004 Prius 10.1 seconds 2010 Prius 9.7 seconds 2011 Honda Insight 10.4 seconds http://www.zeroto60times.com/Toyota-0-60-mph-Times .html http://www.zeroto60times.com/Honda-Vtech-0-60-mph- Times.html | ||
| Buewulf |
Equally slow? This was in reference to cruising speed, but point taken. Even with them not free, it makes sense. They have similar MSRPs This was in reference to the Honda, which has a $4000 MSRP. What is involved with maintaining the Honda? If you go by their service manual, you change the oil and filter every 8000 miles. Coolant every 24000. Check valve clearance every 16000. The local Honda shop here charges $114 OTD for a synthetic oil change, valve check, lube/adjusment of all cables and pivots on this particular bike. I am sure that price can be much higher depending on dealer (I've seen as high as $350 on forums), but that is what it is here. It is more if you need shims of course. If you are a DIY type, checking the clearance is cake on this bike (I have done it), and there is a recess in the head that lets you push the rocker arms to the side to change shims. Seems pretty easy other than space being tight. On a DIY budget, it is cheap to maintain. Not sure what a dealer maintained bike would cost, though. Touring on a 250 is about as practical as touring on a Zero. B.S. I rode 1700 miles roundtrip on a Ninja 250 over four days. It performed admirably. Are there "more practical" bikes for the task? Sure. The point is the Zero has no chance of accomplishing that task unless you have lots of time and enjoy pushing. If not going far from home or not being able to ride your favorite roads all day long has no value, then this is a non-issue. But don't pretend that a 250 is "no more practical" for this type of play than the Zero. Well it wouldn't make sense to buy a 20 year old bike these days for daily use anyway. I agree, but I was referring to Honda's newest little 250, not its great-grandfather. I find it very interesting that electric bikes elicit such a powerful negative response. I'm guessing there are plenty of other forms of transportation folks don't want, but they don't spend so much time pointing out their faults (real or perceived). Why electric bikes? Electric bikes have the greatest potential of replacing the current technology which excites some and frightens others. I think that is why it is hotly debated, IMHO. Electric bike don't have flaws per se - they are what they are. They just don't meet any of my needs as a primary or even a secondary street bike. Now I am considering getting an MX one with an extra battery pack. The shorter runtime is not so big a deal and the quiet operation has huge advantages for how I intend to use it. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
New Honda EV motorcycle http://www.gizmag.com/honda-to-show-electric-super sports-rc-e-motorcycle-at-tokyo-motor-show/20454/ | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Buewolf, If you end up getting one make sure you let us know about it. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I don't think the response here was negative, quite the opposite. Just wrestling with the pro's and con's of a new technology, and trying to see if the whole package makes sense. These bikes have a "scooter" performance envelope with a "big bike" price. Offsetting that negative is the fact that they promise very low operating costs. Does it balance? Are there other intangibles that further offset the negative? Thats where we are trying to get. Overall, the more I think about it, the closer I think they have gotten to a real value proposition. If that dual sport with the lower range was a $6k bike, I would be on the waiting list already. They are damn close... | ||
| Buewulf |
If you end up getting one make sure you let us know about it. I will let you know all about it if I get one. The only dealer in TX is in San Antonio which is about four hours from me. I am hoping to get out there next weekend for an extended test. I'll post some impressions and maybe some video since my clutch hand will be free. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
I've never even known anyone that has ridden an electric motorcycle so I'm very interested in what you have to report once you've demo'd one. How well sorted out is the throttle response? Just how cool is riding whisper quiet? Is it whisper quiet? Does it have a good horn? How well balanced is it? Comfort? Is one gear hard to get used to? Does it feel real light? Can it pull a wheelie? Is it freaking cool or what? Is it cheap feeling? Does the belt look like it would last? Does it feel like it has power? What kind of maintenance is required? Does it have decent wheel bearings with a separate seal? Find out as much about the battery as possible. What's a spare cost and is it easily swappable? You'd better take some pictures or video. | ||
| Buewulf |
The model I am interested in is the MX which is an offroad only model, though I'll be testing the street legal version of it. Since it is a chain drive, it will not be whisper quiet, but it should be near stealth. A spare battery pack costs about, $3300. You undo a locking bar, unplug the battery and slide the pack out on this particular model and those fashioned after it. The other bikes they make require tools and about an hour's time to access the battery, which is a good thing since you wouldn't want it stolen. Those latest packs cost almost $6000 if I remember correctly. Of greater concern to me is the motor, especially since I intend to run it in a harsh environment (dirt, sand, water, mud, etc.) I'll be inspecting it very closely as I would expect it to fail before the battery would. I want to see how they keep these things out of the motor while still managing to keep it cool. I'll take the trusty smart phone and report back to you with pics, vids and feedback. Like I said, I am hoping to get out there the weekend before Thanksgiving. So if luck should have it, you won't have to wait too long for the review. | ||
| Buewulf |
Just got some feedback from the dealer on the 2012 models that supposedly have significantly more range and power than the 2011 model I'll be sampling. I thought I'd pass it on to those who care. The newly designed battery pack for the 2012 X and MX models is $6500. It supposedly increases ride time by 75% (for 100% more money!) So I hate to think what the new pack for the "114 mile range" bikes cost. She couldn't provide me with the cost of a replacement 2012 motor as Zero hasn't released that info to her yet. | ||
| Blake |
The new 2012 9 KWH DS is a pretty nice product. It needs some gears or some kind of variable drive ratio system. The price will come down and the performance will continue to improve. It won't be long until I have an e-bike for round town stuff. | ||
| Blake |
A Uly is high maintenance and costs a fortune to maintain? What universe did I just unknowingly enter? | ||
| Blake |
>>> All things equal, the Prius will come out ahead of a gas car or motorcycle. Period. Huh? Wanna race? LOL! I think on the highway a motorcycle would be able to stomp a prius in MPG. Saying that motorcycles are inefficient is misleading if on average they achieve better fuel economy than the average automobile. For one or two persons traveling, the average motorcycle will use a lot less fuel than the average car, so wrt fuel, motorcycles are indeed more efficient transportation. Then you have... http://www.monotracer.ch/ Cool bike though... |
