| Author | Message | ||
     Jconly |
Hey everyone.. So I experienced some strange electrical behavior yesterday, and could definitely use some help diagnosing it. What I initially thought was a failed stator / vr might not be after all. Here's the run down: Riding around Brooklyn, lots of stop and go as always, running some errands. Notice the bike has gone from putting out its normal 14.3 Volts while running, and dropped down to 12. My idle has seemed to increase also. When I roll off the throttle at the light, it sits at about 2.5 K for a bit, before SLOWLY dropping back down to 1. I had previously been experiencing some slight electrical issues with my HIDs. Not sure if this was an indicator, or a cause, but basically, when starting the bike at times, my low beam would fail to fire up. When I would switch to high though, that one would always immediately kick on, and would SOMETIMES make the low beam start as well. Generally though, the low beam would EVENTUALLY kick on after riding for a bit. Voltage was always above 12 though. Anyway, I continue on my way, and watch my voltage continue to drop. It gets down around to 8V or so.. the headlight doesn't have enough juice to stay powered and starts flickering on and off. I'm thinking, ok turn around while it's still running and take it back to the garage. At this point, I figured my VR or stator had completely gone, and just started to drain the battery down below its 12V. But then, I watched my voltage shoot back up to 12 again. I'm thinking ok, this is weird, maybe it's just a loose connection, or a fried "77" connector that had never been upgraded. So, stupid me pulled over, and killed the bike to check for loose connections and cracks on the ECM. Nothing seemed out of place... So, I go to start her up again, turn the key, voltage is at 12. Hit the starter, it immediately drops down to 8 again, and doesn't have the juice to turn over. Long story short, I come back for her later in the evening with the van with the battery I pulled and charged at the garage (thank god for the great public transportation here in NYC.) Put the battery in, and she started up just fine. Voltage was sitting at 12 initially. Then, as I proceeded to ride back to the garage, I watched it climb a little bit up to about 13.5 or so. I'm thinking, ok must have definitely been a loose connection that I fixed without knowing it.... seemed like the bike was charging up again. Well, I was wrong. And here's where it gets weird. The voltage dropped down to 8 or so again, my high idling issues came back. I started to lose my headlight again. Ok I'm thinking, same problem, battery is just getting drained.... except then the voltage came back up to 11, but the problems persisted. Then the bike throws a check engine light... then the gauge cluster dies too.. all needles just dropped down to zero, and the clock disappears. Turns signals don't have enough juice to operate either. Then, the engine goes from idling a little high, to barely idling at all. I have to give it throttle at the red lights to keep it from dying on me. All the while, voltage stayed at 11V. I got it back to the garage, plugged the battery to the tender to charge up over night... and went to grab a beer. So, anyway, I would have guessed it was the stator if it wasn't for that little issue at the end of my ride back with my voltage staying at 11. Maybe it's just a VR issue now? Perhaps something in the wiring harness has fried somewhere? Not sure if a bad ground could cause this madness either. Either way, I need to get back to the garage after work tonight, check the error codes, and start inspecting the wiring. But I figured I'd check in and pick your brains to see if anyone has some suggestions on where to look, how to diagnose the problem. I don't have any cracks in my ECM that I can find, it all looks intact or else that would be my first go-to. Also, the 77 connector area all looks fine as well. I'm wondering if maybe running my HID's without a relay directly from the battery has fried my VR over time though? Would love to hear what you guys think. As always, thanks so much for the amazing help!! | ||
| Reepicheep |
Sounds like a stator in the process of failing. It's coming and going, but more gone then there. Could be the VR as well, but the stator is the more highly stressed part. Running the HIDS directly from the battery actually helps your VR, it doesn't hurt it. Pop off an inspection cover on the primary, and take a whiff. Burnt stators smell awful. To test, disconnect the 77 connector and measure AC with the bike running. And remember your failure seems a bit intermittent, so you may need a bit of testing to track it down. | ||
| Etennuly |
You say you checked the "77" plug area. Did you unplug it? The connectors will toast inside and you may not see it on the outside of the plug. Also check the wires from the plug to where they pass under the engine. I have fixed two of these bikes where the wire was tight over an edge on the muffler clamps where it wore through. | ||
| Luftkoph |
per service manual1 unplug connector 46 under sprocket cover and unplug it, 2 connect an a/c voltmeter across sockets 1 -2,step 3 run engine at 2000 rpm the a/c output should be 32-40 volts (apprx.16-20 volts per 1000rpm) 4 repeat across-2-3 and-1-3 if you have satisfactory voltage there it is most likely your voltage regulator. I know when mine went out it took it 700 miles of wonky behavior before it failed. | ||
| Chief_sitting_buell |
I've posted this before but I had the same kind of erratic behavior over several months. The 77 connector looked good but once when I had it hooked up to the meter I wiggled the connector just for the heck of it, and the needle danced all over. I figured a cheap fix was worth a try so I cut out the 77 and hard-wired with posilocks. I have an 06 Uly and I had heard the new VR and/or stator ( can't remember which) had different connectors anyway. Long story short - that was 2-3 years ago and the issue never happened again. | ||
| Hooper |
My VR was just replaced. The bike had suddenly stopped charging the battery. One day I'm riding all day just fine, then the next evening I ride 35 minutes down to a restaurant, eat for an hour, then try to start up and go, but the sucker is dead. I tried a jump start, but it wouldn't stay running. I trickle charged it overnight, but that only took me about 30 miles before dying again. A new VR cured it. | ||
| Metra6924 |
I had a similar issue a few months ago. When the voltage dropped, the idle speed would jump and the Check Engine Light would come on. It was an intermittent problem and very frustrating 100 miles from home and riding in the rain. Someone here mentioned that the Idle Air Controller is sensitive to low voltage. The service manual also indicates voltage may cause an IAC problem. My problem was a combination of a failing Voltage Regulator (it eventually failed) and pressure from the seat on the ECM wires. I changed the VR and relocated the ECM. So far, so good. | ||
| Ratbuell |
When my 77 let go, it unplugged fine at the side of the road when I was checking things. That was enough of a "wiggle" to get us that last hour home. Next morning...connector no unpluggy. Melted/fused together. So I replaced it and haven't had an issue since. | ||
| Lastcyclone |
What is the miles on your bike? Seems that if the stator goes, it is somewhere around 30,000miles. Went thru the same two months back. I also, did a lot of city riding and traffic. Turned out to be all four. 77 connector melted, but only on the inside. Disassemble the whole thing to check. Stator only worked sometimes, when it didn't, it burnt the VR and killed the battery in the meantime. Costly, but the safe way to go is replace them all and eliminate any worry. Battery $100, VR, $115(comes with updated connector), Stator, $150, Formula Plus $12, primary gasket $25, shift seal $9. Took three weeks to get it all figured out and done, but now all is well. Spend the money, save the time and aggravation. | ||
| Jconly |
So thanks for all the great responses everyone! That makes sense about my idle if the IAC suffers at low voltage. I took the advice here, and tore the bike apart yesterday to run some tests. I followed the procedure in the book to the T, with the exceptions for the battery tests, as I have no tester for that. Only a multimeter. My battery had been charing over night though, and had a full charge. I do expect the health of it to be just fine. Only test that might have been of use I cannot perform is current drain. I don't particularly suspect their being a short anywhere draining the current of the bike, or pulling too much current... and my ammeter test across the ground and negative terminal did not show anything unusual. Everything else checked out just fine though. My stator was putting out the correct voltage across all pins. There was no loose grounds or worn wires. ECM is intact. My 77 connector on the other hand, MAYBE a little iffy. I noticed there was a TINY bit of melt on the inside. It's actually hard to tell if it was just wear and tear from being connected and disconnected or had started to go a little bit, but everything was pretty solid. The connection points were definitely clean and making great contact. But yea, after perfuming all electrical tests, I decided to just try the bike as usual a couple times to see what happened. Turned the key on, fuel pump primed fine, and voltage sat between 12V - 13V. Started her up and let her idle, she sat between 13V - 14V. Did this over and over a few times, with carrying intervals in between. Same results every time, except for the first time when turning the key took the voltage into the 20's initially, but that subsided. Being the middle of the week though, where I cannot afford to get stuck with an abandoned bike in the city during my daily commute... I decided not to take her into work this morning. I let her sit at the garage, not on the charger, and will return after work today and reinspect. I will run the same tests again, to see if I encounter any varying results. But basically, I'm thinking either my 77 or stator connector had come loose... or something is definitely in the process of failing but not there yet. According to the flow chart in the book, it's looking like the solution to the problem is to blame the VR. Basically it says, if you can't figure out the problem, replace the VR as it's probably failing. I think this is what I will do, and upgrade my "77" connector while I'm at it. I'm not so sure I want to replace the stator now though. We'll see if I get the same positive results for the AC test this evening, but if I do, I don't think I'm going to rip her out just yet. Oh, and yea, my milage is right around 32k. But anyway... two questions for you guys. First of all, how does my plan of action sound? Assuming the tests show the same results this evening, do you think I should just go ahead and replace the VR. I don't really want to spend the cash right now, especially with the winter season approaching (although I will still get a good bit of use out of the bike for for another months and half or so) but it seems as if the VR WILL die eventually. Second question... my HID's. Could they have led to this issue? Reepicheep's respons made me realize my initial post on them may not have been clear. They are not currently attached to the battery through a relay, and are instead directly powered through the harness. I'm wondering if this is contributing to the eventual denise of my VR. Thoughts? All was well with them when I was only running one on the low beam, but I started to see startup problems with my low beam when I added the high and did the both headlight conversion. After this, I began to see startup problems on my low beam (even when the high wasn't on) although the high always turns on right away. Anyway, that's all for now. Thanks again for all the helpful responses! I will report back after my escapades at the garage tonight to help average out my test results. Till then! | ||
| Reepicheep |
I bet you weren't really seeing voltages in the 20's initially. I bet what you were seeing was an auto-ranging digital multi-meter going from a lower voltage scale (and getting railed) before switching to a higher voltage scale (where it measured correctly). And you didn't load test the battery. That actually sounds like a likely culprit to me at this point. Batteries are hard to test period, and intermittent battery problems are even worse. Can you pop it out and run up to a local auto parts store and have them load test it? Alternately, getting more than 5 years out of a bike battery is epically good regardless. So if that's the original battery from 2006, just replace it with a new HD battery (very high quality batteries at a reasonable price) and see if it gets better. If it didn't, you aren't out much anyway, as your old battery was doomed soon regardless. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Oh, and the HID rebooting could be creating whacked out symptoms... when the HID kicks on, it draws a LOT of power... especially if you have the 55 watt setup, and REALLY if you have two of them both running. I'm suprised it isn't blowing fuses. So if your battery is bad, and it is causing the "bike" voltage to run low, and those HIDS keep "rebooting", it could be creating havoc in terms of what voltage the bike is running at. And those HID coils are an inductive load, so they could be causing all sorts of spikes and drops. Which could be causing all sorts of other things to be goofy. So you could also disconnect them temporarily and see if that makes the problem go away. But know that it could be a combination of a weakening battery and an overloaded circuit driving the HID... so there might be more than one fix. The HIDS shouldn't have "hurt" the VR or Stator though. The Stator creates X amount of power for Y amount of rev's no matter what else. And the more you load the bikes electrical system, the less heat the VR has to dissipate... so the more stuff on the bike the less wear the VR gets. | ||
| Tootal |
I believe there are 3 separate test for the stator. I had correct voltage but was shorted on one lead. Do all 3 test as two will show good but it only takes one to be bad. I changed my VR after doing the voltage test on the stator and the new VR fried. I did the other test and found a grounded stator. Then I had to buy a stator and another VR. Before you hook up a new VR be absolutely sure the stator is right. Learning from others mistakes is always cheaper!!  | ||
| Lastcyclone |
Same goes for a new battery. All power comes from that stator, if it is the original source of your problem and you replace other components that have been impacted by that iffy stator, it may temporarily eliminate your troubles, but they will return and have you may have to replace those same parts again. Take off your primary inspection cover, check for a burnt smell after you ride. Sometimes it's a good indicator you might have a stator issue. Stators can work intermittently while they are failing. If you can ride with a visible voltage meter it may help. Also, I found the "Batteries Plus" stores will load test for free and their batteries are made by the same maker's as HD. They come with a 2 yr. warranty, they made good on mine and replaced it for free after a year. $98. (Message edited by lastcyclone on October 19, 2011) | ||
| Andymnelson |
Cheap HIDs absolutely could cause your electrical problems. One of the many reasons I canned mine, is because of the numerous tests that have been done on cheap sets that "leak" small currents of extremely high voltage, frying electronics. Sometimes cheap really is cheap... I don't have a clue if it has caused it here, but your question was could they have caused the problem...the answer is yes. | ||
| Etennuly |
I agree with what Reep said. Unhook the lights to test the system. Also a cheap alternative to buying a battery load tester, if your voltage load spike from starting the engine does not drop below approximately 9.8V and it recovers quickly, you should be good to go. If it is dropping below 9.8 on the initial start spike it is likely that it will not have enough voltage to make the ECM work properly. If your HIDs are not isolated from the start cycle, that load can be killing your system by taking too much voltage on start up. | ||
| Jconly |
So, I know it's been a while since my update. Sorry about that, but I've been doing some more testing when I've had a chance. Had the opportunity to take her out on a few more test rides. My voltage is now fluctuating while running from 14.2V down to about 13V, and everywhere in-between.. Upon turning the ignition on, without running engine, the voltage will usually start around 13V and drop to 12 if I wait long enough to start it. Eventually it will drop down below and drain the battery.. it does't take too long. I did end up load testing that battery though. Everything came back just fine. On two more occasions I also tested the stator AC output across all terminals. Everything sits within in the specified voltage range, with minimal fluctuation.. probably from the varying idle. So I'm thinking I may just swap the VR. The stator just seems too consistent to me. At least I'm hoping so. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Change/upgrade the 77 connector first. Spend $5, instead of $55. Your bike sounds like the hard parts are behaving...but to get the 77 to act up, you have to ride it long enough for that connector to get HOT. "A little bit" of burning still indicates arc-ing (a bad connection). Start cheap and simple, then go from there. | ||
| Etennuly |
 You don't even have to get a part if you don't want to waste the time. I cut the plugs off both ends and soldered the wires together with heat shrink about 45,000 miles ago. Since they are all color coded black, do one wire at a time though.  | ||
| Jconly |
That makes a lot of sense. I've been putting some money into the dirt bike for an upcoming Enduro.. so I haven't dropped the $$ on the VR yet. Think I will go ahead and do as Etennuly suggested.. except I'm going to pick up some Posi-Seal's at the local Napa instead. If that solves my problem then woooo!!! If not, I can keep monitoring my voltage until next spring. So long as I'm careful, all has generally been well this past week or two. Thanks guys!!! | ||
| Fordhotline |
Had the same issue with my o6 Uly and a corroded 77 connecter. Connecter gave out completely while on the road. so i cut the connecter out and wired them together. Worked for a month before bike went from not charging to overcharging. Diag and it needed a VR. No doubt that 77 conn shredded that VR out. Now I have a new VR and updated 77 conn. |
