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Ulyranger
Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 09:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Have been having the intermittent engine/electronics cut out and CEL for a while now. Found the thread on ECM relocation, (found here: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/628590.html ) did that and still have the issue. In fact the other night took my lady out for an evening ride and dinner and the problem was worse than ever. Must have done it ten times.

My symptoms; steady throttle, warm engine, at speed, all electrics cut out (including headlights), both guages sweep, CEL lights. This "cut out" lasts mere tenths of a second, you'd almost think it's just a stumble except the electrics. The CEL stays lit for 2-3 seconds. It usually happens between 3k to 3300 rpm at steady cruise.

Been searching other posts and there is similar stuff in here, but either no closure in the particular thread or the symptoms/equipment are just a bit different. So hoping someone else has a little input. My dealer no longer flys the Buell banner and wasn't too thrilled to wrench on them to begin with, so I'm on my own. Don't mind spending money to make this right, just don't want to throw stupid money away. My ECM connector was definitely contacting the underside of the seat and there is a very fine separation (crack I guess) between the outboard connector and the upper ECM casing. Barely noticeable but it is there. I hesitate to call this a crack because it really a separation between the ECM case and the material used to seal the open end of the ECM at the connectors.

I will try to move the connector while the bike is idling, but since the relocation there is nothing contacting the connector any more. So, is my ECM Fubar'd? Something broken loose on circuit board inside making an intermittent disconnect? Or is there something else to check (w/o special equipment that is). Oh yeah, stock '08 XB12XT and I probably fall on the small side of Uly pilots (5'6" 165lbs) so it's not just the bear-sized Buellers experiencing this malady. Any/all input would be appreciated.
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7873jake
Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 10:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You don't have to have the bike running to test.

Key on, kill switch on, fuel pump should cycle. If you wiggle the connector and the connection is suspect, you'll trigger the ECM to reprime the fuel pump and it will whirrrr again.

Mine had the hairline crack in the epoxy stuff where the ECM and port came together. It got progressively worse over time (the ECM, not the crack. The crack is still the same size) leading me to believe that the solder joint inside just got more loose as time and heat wore on.

Mine had the black spacer block on the ECM when I got it.

Somewhere out here there is a picture of the inside of the ECM but I can't find it at the moment. Once I saw it, I understood the 'why' of the issue better.

(Message edited by 7873jake on July 14, 2011)
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Ulyranger
Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 12:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yeah, was afraid of that. Will try the key up test. May have to order a replacement from Erik Buell Racing. Don't really have the disposable $$ right now, but don't want to get stuck either.

Mine too had the block, with stock seat but it still made contact with the very upper edge of the connector block.

The separator block fix kind of ticks me off. Admits knowledge of poor placement/seat fit and was a poor fix.
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Arcticktm
Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 01:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Have you jumped the proper pins in the diagnostic connector to get the CEL to flash out any stored codes?
I found mine ('06 Uly) had the "ECM Failure" code, which was not erasable.
Mine would just flash the CEL and stumble for a split second though. No stalling or electrical shutdown.
Anyway, bike still ran fine other than that, so I lived with it.
However, when I saw what Erik Buell Racing was selling replacement ECM's for ($250?), I put one on my birthday list for this year. The wife got it for me, and that has eliminated the problem, so it apparently was the ECM.
I had previously played with the connector and also made a ECM/seat spacer for the rear ECM mount bolt to match the stock on on the front bolt, since my seat showed evidence of rubbing on the connector/ECM at times.
All is good now with the Erik Buell Racing ECM, and I still have the stocker as a backup.
I had to do an TPS reset, but on the '08 I suppose you can do it without needing a computer. Good luck.
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Buellerxt
Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 01:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Do you have the Comfort Kit, Ulyranger? I only ask because in wondering what causes this problem I believe I've read that heat, being blown back from the fan, effects the ecm as well. I have the comfort kit and 'hope' it helps avoid ecm issues somehow. I have an 08XT as well and though I see no rubbing on the ecm or ecm connectors I do have a bit on the 'after thought' plastic block. I went to the tall seat just after getting the bike and maybe that helps absorbs some of the downward force on the ecm block.
The placement of the ecm really does make you wonder how thoughtful some of the elves were. Best of luck. I hope you find a less expensive fix than a new ecm.
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Ulyranger
Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 11:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Jake, no joy on the key up test. I tried moving the connector with ECM mounted and free. Could not get it to reset though. Maybe heat is the key.

Arcticktm, haven't tried the jumper diagnostic yet, but did a few searches and found the knowledge. So will give that a go tomorrow. I would call my symptoms a "stumble and CEL flash" as well, but everything using juice is definitely affected, if only for a brief instant. How do you like the Erik Buell Racing ECM? Any noticeable improvement?

buellerxt, no comfort kit installed, they disappeared before I could acquire. The higher seats may be more friendly to the ECM, but do look it over carefully. I did not initially see the rub mark due to it's very small contact patch and where it was contacting the seat pan (that circular, slatted vent).
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Closetbueller
Posted on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 01:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sounds similar to the symptoms I had a few months ago. Nothing a new ECM couldn't fix. Mine would only do it when hot also, hairline crack in ECM. Promptly relocated the new one and no issues since.
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Rwcfrank
Posted on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 01:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

On the subject of ecm's what does anyone reckon they are worth now? I have my Erik Buell Racing ecm and I will never go back to stock but I thought about taking the stocker on long trips just in case. Anyone venture to guess what a fair price might be for a used one?
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Richardbiker
Posted on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 07:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Wil, What you described is exactly what I just went through with my 09 XT. Excepting the headlight did not go out. It was like the kill switch was turned on then off while running.
This was July 6th, 85 degree, sunny day in Ohio. It began occasionally and got worse and worse. Made it to destination and checked all the grounds under seat, all fuses and relays. The block at the ECM showed signs of wear where seat touched it and I tried to duplicate problem by wiggling, twisting, hitting connectors at ECM - could not get it to do it. I too am a light weight (5'6", 135lbs) and did not see any other sign of the seat touching the connectors.
Took bike to Harley of Eastgate and they found no trouble codes stored, they test rode it and it did it for them too. They test rode it with the obd reader hooked up and still no trouble codes. They called Harley tech and were told to check grounds under the seat, and if not that it was the ECM. Their guy went through the bike and reseated the two main grounds, checked all the same things I did and still no fix. Harley overnighted an ECM, they installed it with the latest flash and rode tested it. It was fixed and I rode the bike home a few days later (770 mi.) with no problems. The bike was still under warranty so the fix was free. The ECM is $365, labor was rated at 3.4 hours.
The ECM did show a slight separation near front connector in the epoxy coating.
Performance Harley in Syracuse still works on my Buells, they replaced the rear wheel bearings on the Uly in March under warranty.
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Pherris
Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2011 - 04:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'm having the exact same problem on my 09XT. I randomly have the engine die for a couple of seconds before firing back up. CEL cycles along with my voltage monitor I've been looking for loose connections for weeks. After reading multiple threads on this board, I started looking at the ECM. I see no cracks or wear marks. Twisting and wiggling wires does nothing. But when I thump it (shock test) with the engine off and the power on, I realize the problem. I only have 7K miles on it. I plan to take it back to Blue Ridge HD next week and get them to replace it under warranty. I saw in another thread that the ECM is covered for 5 years or 30k miles. I'm hoping to get it repaired for $0.
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Ulyranger
Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2011 - 11:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I appreciate all the input, but haven't even been able to more than look at the poor Uly on passing in the garage all weekend. Work sucks sometimes, busy weekend, no riding.

Richard, I guess that's good to hear about Performance if I really get stuck. They are my selling dealer, but just never really felt welcome there. I have a couple other dealerships I frequent for parts, support, etc and I've never bought a new bike from them but they know me by name when I walk in. I guess I'm a little old school when it comes to customer service. I don't dislike Performance, I guess it's more accurate to say I'm indifferent at this point.

Pherris, 5yrs/30k on the ECM? Seriously? I wouldn't have had to work so much OT this weekend then.....
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Froggy
Posted on Monday, July 18, 2011 - 12:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

5 years or 30,000 KM, not miles. Details are in your owners manual, applies to all the EPA related components on the bike.
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Fung
Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2011 - 09:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

just for fun check your BAS.
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Ulyranger
Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2011 - 07:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

OK, seems the consensus was an ailing ECM. Did the re-location thing, but alas the problem only got worse. Last two rides the "cut outs" got worse and more frequent, but early in the ride. Virtually gone when hot.

Late last week needed to pick up some parts for the truck (read: up on stands/out of service). No problem, just make the run on the Uly.... Key up, needle sweep, fuel pump fires up, idiot lights come on, hit the starter switch, then wham. Everything dies and the High Beam idiot light comes on, everything else dead. First some choice expletives because I'm dead in the water w/o transport, but then figure the ECM must have finally died and I'll just pony up for a shiny, new Erik Buell Racing ECM. Ordered, arrived in record time. Popped it in this afternoon.......wait for it........NO JOY. On key up, needles sweep and that damn blue High Beam light is lit. Nothing else. Checked all my fuses and relays. What else should I be looking at? Fung mentioned BAS, how do I check it and which thing is it in the tail? Is it in that black rubber thing on the backside of seat catch with about six wires protruding?

Any help would be appreciated.....
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Ulyranger
Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2011 - 09:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Did a little more research on here, could it possibly be a bad ground situation? Backfeeding through the High Beam indicator?

Also answered my own question regarding the BAS, it is the black gizmo on the bracket with three wires.
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Anonymous
Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2011 - 09:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

When I put my new ECM on my bike I forgot to hook up one of the grounds next to the fuse block I had taken off and had identical symptoms. Might be a good place to look.
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H2opatrol
Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2011 - 09:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sorry anonymous police, that was me. Touchy phone....
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Steveford
Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2011 - 09:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Wiggle test time - try up by the steering stem area first and work your way backwards towards the battery.
Sorry to hear of your agita.
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Ulyranger
Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2011 - 11:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

SUCCESS!!

It was the ground (main one) from battery to frame rail. I addressed the other ground location a few weeks back when I added some lighting but got lazy and didn't remove the battery to get at the other one by removing the battery tray.

I broke out the meter again and started testing grounds.....not good. So I removed everything, fuse block, battery and tray. Filed down the mating surface on the frame and lightly sanded all other contact patches. Put it all back together and zero'd out the meter, all good there. To be honest, figured I fixed it as soon as I hooked up the Negative lead on the battery because I heard a couple very, very faint clicks up in the instrument cluster that weren't there when I previously messed with the battery. It started and ran fine with the original ECM. Figured if I screwed something up, it WASN'T going to be the Erik Buell Racing. Tomorrow I'll take it for a run with both ECMs for some seat of the pants testing.

I finished up in the shop fine tuning the adjustment on my clutch cable and applying my new Erik Buell Racing stickers. In a way it sucks buying a new ECM and maybe not needing it.......then again if it helps support the Elves and I gain a little performance I guess it's a win-win. Plus I'll have a backup.
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Ulyranger
Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - 10:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Wow! Can't believe I lived with that problem for so long. It's like I've got a new bike, or least backed up the odometer to just post break in. Seriously, I'm in love again. It's running butter smooth, even between 2k-3k. And that's with the old, OEM ECM! The bad ground causing the cut outs makes sense, but it improved overall performance. I didn't even realize some flat spots and minor stumbles that were present. All that from a bad ground? Modern electronics....

The only negative, my Neutral indicator light is not working. Hopefully it's just a bulb, or are those things LEDs? More digging.

Didn't swap in the Erik Buell Racing ECM, figured the OEM is working so well I'm going to put a tank of fuel through it. Then swap out for comparison. It's probably been posted before, but if you've got performance problems, even if they don't "appear" to be electrical in nature.....check/repair that grounding location.
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Arcticktm
Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2011 - 12:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'd be interested in any differences you see when you try the Erik Buell Racing ECM.
Unlike most others here, I did not see huge improvement (other than eliminating the ECM Failure mode code, of course!).
I see some improvement in low RPM smoothness with the Erik Buell Racing, but it still pings a bit when hot under a roll on accel, and fuel mileage is unchanged from what I can measure.
Still happy to have it, but it was not a big change.
My '06 is stock motor/exhaust, but I have a K&N air filter and a '07 airbox lid.
I went through all my electrical grounds a year or 2 ago, so believe them to be OK.
Still have the stock battery, which is surprising after 5 years.
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Ulyranger
Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2011 - 09:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Arctic, I'll try to remember to post back in this thread when I've swapped over the ECMs with my riding impressions. I really can't believe how well it's running with the OEM. After addressing the ground, it makes sense that the resistance was high. The negative lead's grommet has to pass current through the battery tray, to the frame rail (which is anodized) and the mounting screw has thread locking compound. Well, actually the current has go the other way, but the resistance is the same.....

I also have to track down the Neutral indicator issue. Not really a huge issue since I have never fully trusted them things anyways and slowly let out the clutch lever on a stop.

I also agree, even if it isn't a huge difference that it's piece of mind to have a spare brain for an orphan bike.
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