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     Desert_bird |
So it seems that the Obama administration is now giving the nod to ethanol blends of up to 15%. E15. I may be heading down to the southern America's, where ethanol blends in motor fuel are much higher. My mileage on the Uly suffers when using ethanol blends. Guess not as much bang per detonation. But is there a point where higher concentrations of ethanol damages our motors, or has other detrimental effects? How does ethanol burn and what are the effects in the combustion chamber? DB. (Message edited by Desert_bird on October 15, 2010) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Whisperstealth |
From what I have heard - and I could be full of it, Ethanol burns hotter and faster. Could lead to detonation, which is a bad thing. You want a powerful, yet consistent burn. Not a premature detonation  I prefer 93 octane non-ethonal, and use it when I can. Many here go with 91 w/10% ethanol and like it just fine. Fuel threads can end up like oil threads... | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Hotredjohn |
My understanding is that anything over 10% is not a good thing for our motors. Others may have more info. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jphish |
Ethanol is not good in higher concentrations unless the motor & associated components are designed for it. Results in short 'tank life' for fuel, (use stabilizer if you arent going to ride for awhile) deteriorates seals, can cause carbonation of valves / pistons, and frankly... a real poor use of fertilizer intensive corn crops. Not to mention causes whiskey shortages! | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Hughlysses |
I'm pretty sure the owner's manual says something to the effect of 10% maximum. Aside from its effect on engine performance, higher concentrations can eat plastic & rubber parts in the fuel system & even corrode some metals. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Electraglider_1997 |
I've exclusively used 10% gasahol for 30,000 miles with no problems. I live in corn country and ethanol blended fuel is subsidized. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Reepicheep |
I believe (and I am not a chemist) that alcohol actually burns cooler than gasoline. That lets the really fast cars run faster, as they can run extremely high compression and use extremely high volumes of fuel. A gallon of alcohol has less potential power than a gallon of gas. So pure ethanol will give you lower power and fewer miles per gallon. If you were going to tune your car to be ethanol only, I believe you can actually make more power at the end of the day, but again at much worse MPG's. Saab had a neat setup that was dedicated to ethanol, and could smoke a similar gasoline powered car on the track, but it involved a motor that was pretty advanced and a turbo charged induction system. They built a big ethanol plant in the town I grew up in (core of ohio farm country). They worked quite a while to try and figure out what to do with the massive amounts of CO2 the fermentation process releases. Good thing it is green technology, well intentioned, and supported by environmentalists... otherwise all that energy consumption and CO2 emissions needed to produce and ferment the corn would be evil. :/ | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Dfishman |
Too much???? When I wake up with a headache! Ethanol is for drinking not burning in an engine. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Panhead_dan |
I agree with Dfishman. I'm all for supporting the farmers but ethanol fuel is screwing up my equipment at 10%. More would be worse. None for me thanks (but I will take another beer). | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Timmyo |
You should ask a ducati multistrada owner (older multistradas) how well they like fuel with ethanol! The tanks are made from some sort of plastic and the insides are untreated, combine this with the water attracting properties of ethanol and you get a tank that absorbs the water, expands, and potentially cracks! | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Swampy |
I have experienced rust in metal fuel tanks due to ethanol exposure. Ethanol attracts water, water rusts metal, rust particals plug fuel systems. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Desert_bird |
Thanks for the input guys. The uly's tanks are aluminum though, so presumably no problems with rust there. The rubber gaskets, tubes and other what-have-yous from the tank to the compression chamber are an issue, if ethanol really does attack rubber as claimed. Otherwise, seems just deal with less power, less mileage, and back off the throttle a bit if she starts pinging. If I use the E15-E25 (that's right, Brazil goes that high), then will have to start using higher octane mixes (which sorta sucks cause I've become used to the extra punch of low(er) octane fuels). | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Mark_weiss |
Ethanol burns MUCH cooler than gasoline. Ethanol's heat of vaporization is low enough that carbureted bikes & cars can be VERY hard to start in cold weather. This problem is greatly minimized with fuel injection which provides much better vaporization. Ethanol to gasoline equivalency is about 2:1. That means that twice the amount of ethanol needs to burn to produce the same heat/energy as one unit of gasoline. This is why fuel economy drops with ethanol blends. A gallon of E10 will have .9 gallons of gasoline and .1 gallon of ethanol. That .1 gallon of ethanol is roughly equivalent to .05 gallon of gas, so your engine will treat the whole unit as only about .95 gallons. There's the loss, your bike will consume an extra .05 gallons of fuel to do the work of 1 gallon of gasoline. Make sense? On E10, you can expect to see a 5% drop in economy compared to straight gasoline. E15, about 7%, etc. In general, this is well within the parameters of most "smart" fuel injection systems. E25 is where things get difficult. Hard starting, running as if lean, etc. Ethanol has the beneficial effect of raising the fuel's octane rating without the use of more hazardous additives. Ethanol has a reputation for clogging fuel filters with the old, built-up, fuel system crud that will be loosened with ethanol. This should not be a problem for modern vehicles which have not been running on the oily fuels used decades ago. Ethanol's propensity to bind with water is a double edged sword. For vehicles that see regular use, this is a benefit. Moisture does not collect in low points and cause corrosion or fuel starvation. For vehicles that sit, this can be a liability as the water will not collect at low spots but stays dispersed through the fuel. This makes it more difficult to keep "dry". All in all, I have used ethanol blended fuels for over 30 years. 3 Chryslers, 2 Dodges, 3 Fords, 1 Datsun, 2 Saabs, & 2 Hyundais. 2 Hondas, 1 Suzuki (two-stroke), 4 BMWs, 2 Yamahas, and 1 Buell. NEVER have I had an ethanol related problem. Not even in the lawnmower. Of the cars, the Chryslers and the Datsun were carbureted. Of the bikes, one BMW, one Yamaha, and the Buell are injected. I'd check with Erik Buell Racing on the limits of the ECU's fuel range. They may be able to supply you with a special map, or better yet, an appropriately mapped ECU for high ethanol levels. Mark SE AZ (Message edited by Mark_Weiss on October 17, 2010) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Whisperstealth |
(which sorta sucks cause I've become used to the extra punch of low(er) octane fuels). I'm confused. Why does lower octane give you more punch? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Desert_bird |
Whisperstealth, I'm no chemist, just a weekend tinkerer with my own experiences but . . . as I understand, ethanol can be used to raise octane ratings of blended fuels. In so far as ethanol contains about half the energy density when burned compared to gasoline, then it reasons that higher octane ethanol fuel equals less energy than lower octane ethanol fuel. Where ethanol is not part of the blend, for any given amount of fuel in the combustion chamber, the more additives the less gasoline and the less combusting power - unless the additives are more combustible than the fuel! Higher octane fuels contain additives to make fuel burn at a more predictable rate and to prevent detonation. Increasing octane has an effect similar to retarding ignition timing. Running lower octane has one effect similar to advancing ignition timing. Anybody who as a kid zealously twisted their distributor caps seeking to advance timing on their vehicles to get a little more acceleration kick knows that it works to a point, after which it becomes a game of quickly diminishing returns and damaged motors! To a degree, lower octane gasoline burns faster and more powerfully than higher octane gasoline. Note that this can be a problem in high compression/performance engines, or when constantly on the gas. In both situations detonation becomes a problem, with all the associated problems of pinging and potential engine damage. But in low(er) compression engines lower octane actually gives more punch, to a point. I sometimes have detonation on my Uly when running very low octane fuels, and when I get aggressive on the throttle at lower RMP's I've learned to keep from flogging to hard, and enjoy the steady-burn of less adulterated gasoline and resulting higher mileage. Again, I aint to ixpurt. This is one of the issues that can be beaten to no-end. But interesting food for thought nonetheless. (Message edited by Desert_bird on October 17, 2010) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Whisperstealth |
So 89 non ethanol would be the best for milage/punch. But 91 non ethanol for the motor? Where I am it's hard to find 91 non ethanol. For non-E it's: 87, 89, or 93 For 10%E you can find: 87, 89, 91 and maybe 93? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Invisible_monster |
You should ask a ducati multistrada owner (older multistradas) how well they like fuel with ethanol! The tanks are made from some sort of plastic and the insides are untreated, combine this with the water attracting properties of ethanol and you get a tank that absorbs the water, expands, and potentially cracks! This is not limited to the Multistrada. Sport classic and Monster owners are experiencing the same issues. The tank on my '05 Monster has recently started to deform. On the bright side Ducati is replacing many of these tanks with new ones. Even with bikes that are out of warranty. I'm torn on ethanol fuel. Up until this problem with my Ducati I've never had an issue using E10. My parents were farmers until a few years ago, farmers benefit from the production of ethanol fuels. These types of fuels also lessen our dependence on foreign oil. Lower MPG and less power are a definite downside. In the end I just fill up with whatever is at the pump... | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Motorfish |
Increasing ethanol, decreases MPG. Soon the oxygenated fuel is sold during the winter months. So this winter, if they increase the ethanol content, in the oxygenated crap, mileage will REALLY suck. Great. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Desert_bird |
Whisperstealth, I find the differences is slight. Like Invisible_M writes, just fill up with what's available. There are tradeoffs both ways - the economics and geopolitics of global fuel production and distribution notwithstanding: Either lower octane, which is cheaper, offers better mileage (and in my experience) slightly better detonation, or go higher octane which allows for more flogging (less pinging), but also costs more and offers less mileage. I do, however, find it amusing that it may not be soooo bad not pumping up with the most 'Supreme, Extreme, Sublime' high-octane jet fuel. Sometimes the standard old cheap stuff is also the most reasonable choice. Most importantly, ride on! DB | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Mileage isn't bad with 10% alcohol. Runs good in my bike. I've had one of the least problem bikes on this Badweb. Darned near problem free. My ULY has never failed me on a trip ever. Better cross my fingers. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Swampy |
The problems with the ethanol in the fuel is what it does to the fuel system, bad to the rubber components, and it attracts water and becomes corrosive to the metal components. I have started using Stabil Marine Formula as it has an ethanol stabilizer | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Arcticktm |
The idea that octane has an effect similar to changing timing is not quite true. Higher octane fuel does not burn "slower", it simply resists detonation better (combustion without an ignition source, like due to increases in heat and pressure as the piston nears top dead center). The spark will determine when the fuel starts to burn (if you have no detonation/pinging), and the fuel chemistry and combustion chamber design will determine how the flame spreads and burns all the charge (or not). The info we always had at Arctic Cat was that ethanol has about 25% less energy content than typical gasoline. Not sure where these 50% numbers above are from. The 25% can be confirmed from info on the USDA web site. Either way, your MPG will suffer a bit the more ethanol you are running. My biggest concern, as a powertrain engineer, is with the rubber and plastic parts. I have no way of knowing what all the parts in my fuel system are OK with, since I do not have all the specifications for them. I do know my 4 year old weed trimmer fuel line does not like ethanol in the least, and the hoses get brittle and crack in just a couple years. Have not had a clear issue with ethanol on anything else, but I do not like the EPA gambling with my motors with this knee-jerk 15% rule. I hope most fuel blenders choose not to go this route. Note even the EPA states that this 15% ethanol blend is only for cars/trucks 2007 and newer, and NOT for small engines, including motorcycles. Wonderful, but I have not seen too many small engine specific gas stations recently... | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Swampy |
Gosh, I must be getting old, I am repeating myself..... | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Buewulf |
Not sure where these 50% numbers above are from. The ratio between the net BTU of ethanol to gasoline is .665. So ethanol has about 2/3 the energy density of gasoline, which means you need just over 1.5 gallons (50% more) of ethanol to equal one gallon of gas. I believe that is where his 50% number comes from though he should be using the 2/3 figure in his point. I do not know where the USDA gets its figures, but they have clearly been adjusted for politics if they really state 25%. All chemistry resources and even the Department of Energy will confirm the 2/3 figure. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Buellhusker |
I run either premimum or ethanol blended fuel in all of my bikes, BMW K1200LT 100,00 miles, Uly 22,000 miles, 1125 6,000 miles, and S1WL 23,000 miles. Ethanol when avaiable and have never had any problems with it. However currently the Uly is down due to fuel pump failure. In fact I have a 2002 Yukon 115,000 miles and when I pull my 25 foot utility trailer I prefer to run E85 for the performance it gives however I do wish I could get the milage I get if I run regular fuel. Here in Nebraska there is a significant price differance between regular, E10 & E85 so in the end it costs the about same for fuel on any given trip. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Froggy |
From Wikipedia:
So yes, E100 has 50% the energy content of standard gasoline. E100 is not purchasable anywhere in the US that I know of. The standard E10 that is available in many gas pumps has about 2% less energy content than standard gas, which puts it in line with my fuel economy observations. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Buewulf |
So yes, E100 has 50% the energy content of standard gasoline No, I'm not trying to be a smartarse. But that table says that gasoline has 50% more energy content than ethanol, not that ethanol has 50% less energy than gasoline. That means that ethanol has 2/3 the energy content of gasoline (1 gallon gasoline / 1.5 gal of ethanol). Or 33% less... However you want to state it. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Paint_shaker |
Ethanol sucks! Bring back pure gasoline!!! Put the corn to a much better use; Whiskey!!! | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Etennuly |
  Running alcohol in race cars, like years ago, required twice the size of fuel tank, twice the jet size, and fuel line size etc. Hmmmm....must be it took twice as much to make the same power as gasoline. It just ran cooler allowing other tweeks for more power. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Tootal |
Well lets see, the gov. gives our tax dollars to farmers to grow corn to make alcohol. Our debt is over 13 trillion. We are dependent on foreign oil. Pure gas gives us better mileage so it's more efficient. How about we stop paying farmers and drill in our own country. This will put Americans to work, stop wasting our tax money on something that's less efficient and keep our dollars in house. While down in Georgia I actually found a Shell station with separate hoses and 93 octane, 100 percent gas! I had been getting 45 mpg. I got 50 on that tank!! I hate gasahol and I'm surrounded by corn fields!! | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Froggy |
Funny thing, I found a gas station I think in Tennessee that had 93 Octane in pure gas. I got 50mpg on that tank, then filled up when it ran low in Virgina with 93 Octane E10, ended up getting 55mpg on that tank. I am sure if all things being equal, I would of gotten about 57mpg on that route if I ran more pure gas. (This was on my 1125R)
It also dosen't burn as clean as ethanol blends, hence the big push to ethanol. I personally feel a slight drop in energy content is worth it for the environment and air, but thats me. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Tootal |
The environmental aspect is a farce. Granted if you put a sniffer on an engine burning only gas and one burning E10 the E10 will be cleaner but you have to burn more of it to go the same distance. So in the end the total volume to go from point A to point B will not be as clean. The longer the distance between points makes E10 less clean. It's like buying a pint of butter and a pint of whipped butter. When you melt them down you end up with less butter in the whipped container. Engines are so clean today compared to the 60's. I remember seeing an article in Popular Mechanics that had a graph showing a bucket full of contaminants from a 60's era engine. Compared to that full bucket a modern car wouldn't even make a whole drop in that bucket! That article was from the 80's! With our modern technology we have come a long way baby!! |
