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Buell Forum » Big, Bad & Dirty (Buell XB12X Ulysses Adventure Board) » BB&D Archives » Archive through August 19, 2010 » Had a thought...on breather reroutes vs. throttle shaft breakage « Previous Next »

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Archive through August 13, 2010Ratbuell30 08-13-10  07:46 pm
         

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Ourdee
Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2010 - 08:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I need to get the Q-tips out and clean my throttle body. Did a 15,000 mile oil change tonight. I did the reroute a long while back. I'll be pig#2.
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Johnboy777
Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2010 - 09:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

""Flawed *design*, they'd ALL break regardless of how they're used. ""

What?

Using that logic, the the rear wheel design was fine on all of the Uly's prior to 2010
and there was no need for an improved rear wheel design because they "all" didn't burn up their bearings.



...
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Ratbuell
Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2010 - 09:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

There's FLAWED DESIGN....and there's PRODUCT IMPROVEMENT.

I must be the oddball. The '06 Uly I was beating the crap out of earlier tonight (yet again, I might add...), with over 15k on it, has broken neither a throttle shaft nor a rear wheel bearing.

Hm.
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Johnboy777
Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2010 - 09:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

""There's FLAWED DESIGN....and there's PRODUCT IMPROVEMENT.""

Good Grief, rat!

Why on earth would you perform a "PRODUCT IMPROVEMENT" on something, if there was no inherent design flaw?

You don't put a cast on a man's unbroken leg, do you?

.
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Ourdee
Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2010 - 10:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Depends on how he is going to use the leg. I'd call it armor.
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Ourdee
Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2010 - 10:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I had my own thought on the wheel bearings:
1.) Could water have gotten in between the bearings prior the bike being built? Lots of ways that could have happened.
2.) Could the wheel have been submerged in water during a tire change by an over-zelous mechanic making sure the bead sealed?
3.) Pressure washing?
4.) I carried heavy loads and used generous throttle settings at low speeds.
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Dirt
Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2010 - 12:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Not sure why people are still arguing the rear bearing issue. Crusty posted on 25 July 2008 that during an engineering seminar at homecoming, Abe Askenazi told him that water damage was the cause of the bearing failures that Buell engineers had investigated. Abe stated that analysis showed that water was getting into the bearings through damaged/inadequate seals (same as some have reported on this board).

Per Crusty, Abe seemed pretty positive that the upgraded black sealed bearing would end the issue. Well, I can only assume further testing showed the black sealed bearings were not the end all fix all, seeing as how they redesigned the bearings for 2010. In any case, Abe's comments clearly acknowledge a problem exists with the orange seal bearings. Anyone who claims different is simply in denial.
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Ratbuell
Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2010 - 12:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Again....flawed design means EVERY ONE will fail. It's part of that whole "the design is flawed" paradigm.

I know at least one that hasn't failed, and its sitting about 30 feet from me as I type this. I also know there are more, but this one I have personal experience with, and I can tell ya - I haven't kept my bearings dry, nor have I been "nice" to them. Same with my throttle (although I have the stock breather setup).

Product improvement is human nature. Build that better mousetrap, stay ahead of the Joneses, get a leg up on the competition...because you can.

Making something "better" isn't admitting you screwed up. It's taking advantage of new data, new materials, or new processes to build a better widget. If people didn't do that, we'd still be cranking our Model T Fords over by hand and driving on wooden wheels and rutted muddy "roads". Because it worked...why improve it?

And if you like, I can send you copies of my x-rays. Nearly 2 lb of Ti in my legs and my left hip....and actually, they never put a cast on me. Femur shattered into 15 pieces, tib/fib also broken (and, for a while, actually *outside* of my leg as evidenced by the 30 or so square inches of skin graft), L hip snapped off at the edges courtesy of a cell phone and a Gerber multitool...and they had me on my feet supporting weight 18 days later. With no cast and no external support devices.

Guess I must be the exception on a lot of things, since my flawed bearings and flawed throttle shaft still work, and I never wore a cast. Hm.
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Steveford
Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2010 - 06:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Mine's a 2006, stock breather set up, one of the butterfly screws backed partially out and sheared in two at roughly 26,000 miles. The shaft then broke in two.
I got real lucky as nothing went into the engine.
I made sure to put some green loctite on the butterfly screws on the replacement throttle body.
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Johnboy777
Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2010 - 08:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

""Again....flawed design means EVERY ONE will fail. It's part of that whole "the design is flawed" paradigm""

Hold on minute, my BS-O-Meter is making so much racket, I can’t hear myself think.

Once again, you don't perform "PRODUCT IMPROVEMENT" on something that
doesn't exhibit a problem.

You perform "PRODUCT IMPROVEMENT" on something THAT exhibits a problem.

BAS, rear wheel bearings, RSS and ECM update, etc., weren't all done because everything
was fine and dandy...were they?

Of course not - product design is an ongoing endeavor, I get it, but changes are made
with regard to 'problem areas' ...not in areas where problems don't exist.

And speaking of design - who, in their right mind, puts an air-cooled engine in a big metal box (i.e., our frame/fuel tank).

The answer is that it (the frame/fuel tank) was 'designed' strictly for a water-cooled engine. Then Harley
took the water-cooled engine that Erik was working on in a new direction (V-rod) and he was left without
an engine so they stuck the old air-cooled engine in a frame/fuel tank designed for a waret-cooled engine
and tried to band-aid fix the inherent heat issues.

Our frame/fuel tank was never designed for an air-cooled engine.

That's how we ended up with all of the subsequent heat issues.

.
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Ratbuell
Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2010 - 10:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

OK. So 8 track tapes didn't work. Or vinyl records. Or CD's. Or coal furnaces. Or iceboxes. Or the little lawnmowers that have what looks like a spinning barrel of blades to cut grass. None of those worked. They were all flawed, junk, not worth using.

Time and technology (and research and data) and materials progressed, a "better way" was found to do the same job, and a better product was made as a result.

I'm done feeding the troll. Let's just get back to the question at hand - how many throttle shafts have failed a) with a STOCK breather setup, and b) with a REROUTED breather setup?

Simple question. Nothing implied, other than my own curiosity.
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Union_man
Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2010 - 12:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

100% failure is not the measure of a flawed design.
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Methed
Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2010 - 02:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

>100% failure is not the measure of a flawed design.

True, but therein lies a great definition of defective design, which this does not fall under.

Flawed is not an engineering or product design term--either something works to specification or it doesn't. However, before you chew my ass for saying your issue isn't legitimate or something worth addressing, there is always room for improvement.

Ratty made an excellent point defining improvements in audio reproduction devices, techniques, and technology. The same could be said of the differences between tubers and XBs and 1125s, at least as I see it.

Again, please put down your pitchfork and bear with me. Each model line had significant improvements over the former, each exhibited enormous technological advances in comparison to the predecessor. So was the tuber flawed or defective? If not, then it should have been competing just as sufficiently in the Sportbike class last year as the 1125--same goes for the XB.

In my opinion, neither the bearings nor the butterfly shaft display Buell Motorcycles as bearing out the customer and giving them the shaft. If you can prove negligence or deception, then you have my ear. However there is no company producing a perfect product. Shoot, they still can't make paperclips that don't occasionally crack right out of the package.

It's not just Buell or HD or whomever you might feel is obligated to 'make it right' or 'take the blame' for making faulty motorcycle products. From my experience, the F1 through F4i models of the CBR 600 had a downright design on the cam chain tensioner. While Honda made 'improvements' with each model--some good, some colossal failures--none resolved the issue as riders and racers alike had engines tear themselves apart due to this issue. Honda's response when asked why they kept changing the part when they maintained that nothing was wrong in the first place was that it was due to sourcing for the part or cam chain or some such.

In that case, interestingly enough, a cunning bunch of racers teamed up with some machinists to make a manual device to replace the part. Sound familiar?

Now it may sound like I'm contradicting myself here, but rather I'm pointing out three significant differences:
1. The failure of the Honda part was inevitable, at least in the F3s and prior. If you didn't repeatedly replace the part or use the enthusiast's solution, your motor died--in other words, it was large scale and universal.
2. Honda, when faced with litigation on the issue (so the stories go), resolved the issue by determining the device as a 'wear' item that would need pretty frequent replacement after the fact.
3. My understanding is that the bike owners who had collectively offered to use their own bikes for investigating the failures were given what was essentially a 'thanks, but we're Honda--we know what we're doing.

None of these were exhibited with either the shaft or bearing failures--Buell addressed the latter with what was apparently a stop-gap solution of over-engineering the rear wheel axle and bearing configuration; Buell management has used actual failed product to investigate and improve both issues; Buell never just said to replace each part more frequently.

Buell did not simply walk away from the problem.

Other examples exist, but I digress. It is still plain to me, a guy who bought a used Uly that has yet to have either failure, that it is not a universal issue and given the proper resources and time I believe that there would have been further improvements to these and more of the so-called defects, flaws, failures, and the like.

I'm truly sorry if it seems like I'm pissing in your beer, but even after adding together the numbers and percentages and frequency and history of both of these issues and the company's response, I think that calling this a 'piss-poor' or 'POS' design is inaccurate and insulting and way the off topic; let me also add that repeating your opinion using increasingly inflammatory language does nothing for your cause and gives you the appearance of a troll.

Speaking of, I'll go back under my rock for a while and await imminent failure of my flawed, defective, and now obsolete motorcycle. When my throttle shaft and bearings fail, I'll share whatever objective information I have.
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Ourdee
Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2010 - 05:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

My throttle shaft is still good.
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Djohnk
Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 06:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

+1 on the backfiring as at least a partial cause... mine broke this weekend immediately after a loud backfire.
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