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Rr_eater
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2011 - 01:09 am: | 
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YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cant wait!! |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2011 - 01:01 pm: |
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The one on my 06 just failed at about 15K miles. A machinist that attends American Sport Bike Night made a couple of real nice shafts out of Ti. But when installed they went a few deg beyond wide open, so when the TP sensor saw 85deg the plate was beyond that. It is just a matter of correctly indexing the pin for the TP sensor on any future ones, or a WOT stop. However before I use one made out of Ti, I want to understand why the steel ones fail on ULY's.
I believe it's a High Cycle Fatigue type of failure and using Ti would be of little help to prevent the root cause. It has always seemed like the ULY had more intake noise caused by the intake pulses than any other model Buells. The two different engine sizes have different throttle bores and the shaft was changed on the XB12 mid year in 06 when the TP Sensor Service Bulletin came out. HCF is a strange, but very predictable type of failure, it takes some lab work and good math skills to get the answer as to when it will fail, but if it is HCF it will fail. The root cause be it the chatter from intake pulses or something else that is exciting the shaft can sometimes be very minor and obscure. My bike had 5K on it when we did the 1250 conversion and another 10K before it failed.
I have had discussions with Mark from BC Gerolamy on the issue and found out he has been making new shafts for years, but only as needed when a customers is cracked or broken. We did discuss the split shaft and agree with some data we have seen shows a drop in MAX HP. However if you are not into the numbers or drag racing, I am sure the reliability of a split shaft when your out on a road trip on you ULY would more than offset a few HP on top.
Not too sure this post answers any questions but it's what I have come to understand over the last several years on the subject. Possibly someone at Erik Buell Racing could share some info on what might be different on some bikes that cause the failures, if so we could correct the root cause.
terry@Jtsperformance.com |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2011 - 02:31 pm: |
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I wonder if the change in the indexing of the TPS pin between the 2006 and 2007 models isn't related to the failures. 2007 failures aren't unknown but they do seem to be much less prevalent (at least 10 to 1 for 2006 models). Perhaps the orientation of the TPS pin relative to the butterfly and the way it was loaded caused some kind of additive stress, and changing the pin orientation by 90 degrees reduced this? |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2011 - 11:20 am: |
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If it is HCF causing the stress, is is clear it fails at it's weakest point. The split shaft corrects that, but most likely does not correct the cause of the HCF. HCF is a time and frequency issue and I am still willing to bet it is the lower frequency of the intake pulses at idle on the ULY due to something unique in it's design that is the root cause.
terry@jtsperformance.com
(Message edited by buelldyno_guy on January 24, 2011) |
Tootal
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2011 - 05:44 pm: |
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Just curious, have they fuel injected sportsters yet? All my stock Harley carbs run a split shaft but I'm not sure about the FI bikes. As far as why the Uly breaks I believe it is the intake pulses and the vibration together. At WOT the butterfly is vertical and you have a high level of vibration in a forward and back radial motion. This has got to bend the shaft back and forth a little and as you know, metal can only take so many bends before it breaks. They probably had to design it this way to achieve 103 HP. Marketing, marketing, marketing!! |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2011 - 07:17 pm: |
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Tootal,
Sportsters have been fuel injected since 2007 model. My wife has a fuel injected 2007 Sportster Roadster. The heavy flywheel makes off idle very touchy. I have noticed that the XR1200 has much better off idle comparable to the ULYs. |
Dio
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2011 - 11:21 pm: |
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Buelldyno_guy - your reference to the mid-year shaft change is new to me. Are the common failures early '06, or all '06. Would a June '06 build date be a lower failure potential that would be grouped with '07 builds, or are all'06 builds the same potential for failure? |
Tootal
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2011 - 05:29 pm: |
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Well I just got notice that the NC machine is back up and running and he has two more samples for me to check out. Hopefully we can get together on Sunday and have a good working sample. As for the 07's, I finished making a fixture to correctly drill the tps pin hole. It's not just 90 degrees from the 06. The 06 was five degrees off from being in line with the butterfly. The 07 is ten degrees off of being perpendicular to the butterfly. I hope he's got a good one! |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2011 - 11:23 pm: |
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Buell and HD made model changes in mid summer before, so an early 06 would be built in mid to late 05.So a June 06 date would be considered a late 06 model. But my main comment was about how easily a minor change can affect a part causing it to experience an HCF failure. I think research will point out that the BMC Service Bulletin or a running production change that required a different TP sensor was in fact sometime in the mid 06 model year not 07. So some early 06 could have the original XB12 sensor that was used thru 05. I think it was the shaft index change that required the new style sensor used mid 06 thru 07. There have been failures in earlier models including the side draft X1 and S3 units and earlier XB models. However nothing I have seen matches the failure rate of the late 06-07 TB's.
I think we may never find out unless an "Anonymous" poster can tell us what they know. The new 06-07 sensor is electronically the same as that earlier models, so they did not change this to correct anything electronic. It had something to do with the throttle plate and TP Sensor relationship.
And again I could be full of it and the failures are not caused by an HCF excitation of the shaft, but the intake pulse noise on the ULY is still the loudest of any Buell I have ever heard.
Terry@jtsperformance.com
(Message edited by buelldyno_guy on January 29, 2011)
(Message edited by buelldyno_guy on January 29, 2011) |
Tootal
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 10:48 am: |
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Well considering the amount of broken shafts on the 06 and that this wasn't a major problem before, then I surmise it must have been a change in atmospheric pressure due to the taller suspension. At lower altitudes the heavier air must have quenched some of this motion but when a Buell grew legs it no longer had the luxury of denser air and the inevitable became reality. The thinner air would also let sound waves to seem louder due to less resistance. This is starting to make sense to me now. I think I can get into the atomic level soon, just got to get another bottle of shine... |
Wolfridgerider
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 11:18 am: |
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. |
Dirt
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 12:37 pm: |
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All theories aside, Bdyno brings up a good point. According to service bulletin B-062A, a mid-model production change was put into effect beginning on 01/26/2006. It appears that all 2006 Ulys built after that date were equipped with the new "2007 style" throttle body. So anyone looking to buy a shaft for their 06 model should check their bikes date of manufacture. Your bike may actually require a 2007 version shaft instead of a 2006.
A PDF of the service bulletin, which details how to verify which throttle body your bike has, can be found in the knowledge vault located here.
(Message edited by dirt on January 30, 2011) |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 03:52 pm: |
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Tootal, I like the way you think...
 |
Glenn
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 07:25 pm: |
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Tootal,
I love it!! |
Ratbuell
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 09:09 pm: |
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See??
Even the tech bulletin for the throttle body says "orange on a Uly is GOOD"!! |
Tootal
| | Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2011 - 12:42 pm: |
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Well my visit to the machine shop left me frustrated. It was like taking a 1000 mile trip, only to have a flat tire 10 miles from home!!
Using a slitting saw he was able to get the slot wide enough for the butterfly to barely fit but when you put the shaft in the TB the butterfly would not make it. He needs to move the slot over a little which is ok because there is room to cheat on the threaded end. It was so close yet no worky! I was really pumped at first and then really bummed! |
Maximum
| | Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2011 - 04:26 pm: |
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Hang in there Greg...persistence pays! Your efforts are appreciated. |
Tootal
| | Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2011 - 05:11 pm: |
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Have no fear Steve, I might have been bummed but far from quitting. Just a minor tweak and maybe a tool change. I'm too hard headed and anal to let this thing beat me!!  |
Tootal
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2011 - 10:58 pm: |
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Good news, cuz says things should be done by Friday. I'm on vacation next week and I'll go over and check things out. |
Wolfridgerider
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2011 - 09:09 am: |
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Dio
| | Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 11:54 pm: |
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So the plan is to make both style shafts available when production goes on-line? |
Tootal
| | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 09:01 am: |
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We are manufacturing the 06 shaft. If someone needs an 07 we can customize the 06 to work. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2011 - 05:08 pm: |
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Any update? |
Garrcano
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 04:27 pm: |
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Any update ? |
Rr_eater
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 04:10 pm: |
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Ditto...... |
Tootal
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2011 - 08:59 pm: |
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Within a week. Sorry for delays but I have them with one flaw that I'm correcting at work yet work is very busy right now but I should have some ready to ship within the week. |
Djohnk
| | Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 06:24 pm: |
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My throttle body shaft broke this weekend on a trip 120 miles away from home.... I would be interested in purchasing one of those shafts for my 2007 Uly. |
Tootal
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 07:03 pm: |
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Dave and Dave, they're on the way!
Anybody else broke down? I need to get my geezer glide ready for a trip and then I won't be around for a while so this week is it. |
Djohnk
| | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2011 - 11:35 am: |
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@Tootal: Many thanks, having a background in manufacturing I know how much work that tb shaft is (it looks like about 20 machining operations, not including the time for reverse engineering, etc.)
Here's some links to pictures of the new shaft installed:
top view: http://bit.ly/oY5To1
throttle position sensor side view of throttle body:
http://bit.ly/nIs3dr
spring side view (nut is not tightened yet)
http://bit.ly/olhzJR
It is excellent, and I have no doubt it will hold up better than the original.
What did you use to swage the back of the screws that attach the plate to the TB shaft? I am afraid of damaging the shaft or bushings, even if I try to support it from the other side. Do you think hitemp locktite will hold up if I tighten the crap out of the screws (it is above the injectors and I have a breather reroute so only air should be getting in)?
(Message edited by djohnk on July 23, 2011) |
Danair
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2011 - 10:19 am: |
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I have a tool for rebuilding airplane carbs that swages the screw without stressing the shaft. Any thoughts about how much force is applied to the shaft in the closed throttle position during hard braking. Not much force during opening, but pressure on the bars and grip during aggressive braking seems substantial |
Tootal
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2011 - 09:57 pm: |
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Come and get um! PM me. |
