| Author | Message | ||
     Court |
HD will dump MV Agusta at the first opportunity. They got the wool pulled over their eyes . . . they weren't the first, won't be the last. Note that some of the folks involved have already "left to pursue other opportunities". More wine? | ||
| Cash |
I guess that I just cannot see how Buell is able to get any bikes sold with the poor way that HD is handling them. In the past two weeks I've been in 3 HD dealerships (in MO, IA, and MN). So far I've seen a grand total of 6 Buells: 3 used, 1 new 2009 XB12XT, 2 new 2010 1125s. I've always heard the marketing truism that a small inventory indicates either a new business or an ailing business. This kind of support just tells potential buyers that Buell is a fading brand. I sure hope not. Or, am I all wrong and are they are selling so fast that the dealers cannot keep any on the floor? No they are not selling that fast, the reason Buell is closing for 2 months is because there is to much inventory nation wide. I break dealers down into 3 groups.There are those dealers that sell and maintain Buell's very well, they are called Pegasus dealers. They offer knowledgeable sales staff, well trained techs and the dealership supports and understand the brand. Sadly is that theres only a handful nation wide. Second are those dealers that support the brand but don't have any sales staff that cares and only a tech or 2 that knows anything about buell. Third are the dealers that have Buell just to make HD happy, they don't understand the product and certainly don't understand Erik's passion, They offer minimum sales and service support. and the product is put in a corner. Because of this attitude they don't sell many if any bikes and end up wholesaling the product, there by hurting the other dealers in the area. I have a dealer in my state that is advertising 08'-09' Buell's for $200 under dealer invoice, no freight,no set up. Now this is a great deal for a buyer, but in the end it hurts all of our resale values. The lower a bike sells for new the less its going to sell for used. (Message edited by cash on September 14, 2009) | ||
| Firstbatch |
Do yourself a favor a slip on over to the HD website and read thru their annual report and 10K. Good stuff. HOG has been a great stock to own over the years and still has a nice dividend. Buell at 2% of HOG total revenues would likely not be missed if it were to disappear,IMHO. HOG general merchandise at 5.6% of total revenue is nearly triple that of the Buell contribution and we can all be sure that the gross and net margin on merchandise is quite a bit higher than the cycles. I think we are looking at HOG to be a company that will be selling 200k units or so for several years to come in this "new economy" and it looks like they are sizing the company accordingly. It will be interesting to watch it play out. In the mean time the stock has had a nice pop in the recent market rally from about $15 or so in late June to $24ish today. http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/Media/downloa ds/Annual_Reports/2008/HD_Annual2008.pdf?locale=en _US&bmLocale=en_US | ||
| Woodreaux |
Since I started buying Buells in the 90's I have heard the same bickering from both Buell and HD camps: HD-they don't sell...BMC-they don't understand us. We need for HD and BMC to grow up(yes it hurts and it's time) and re-define American grass root marketing strategy. They (HD-BMC) almost made it work say around 97 with the Carve Some Curves ads. I have been told by folks (owners) who attended meetings with the new HD CEO that they expressed no Buell sells (meaning customers) and no marketing support from HD were serious frustrations and problems for them. It was reported to me that EB was in this meeting and chimed in with the "you don't understand us" in which the owners attitude is "you don't understand us". We hear EB is spirited; you don't think Willie G. Davidson wasn't spirited in the 80's in trying to get HD back from AMF? BMC and HD have a lot of smart talent. It's kind of strange they can't get these issues resolved after all of these years. I hope it's not a case of too much money feeding too many egos and that BMC-HD spent all of this time widening the gap instead of learning how to close the gap. We are Americans. Our back is against the wall in these economic times. We have to work more, harder, faster for less and be better than anyone else. This is what is expected of me at my work these days. I expect solidarity, market leadership and quality from HD and BMC and be able to go to dealerships for sales, parts and service. Have they lost the vision and passion of work? From loyal customers - Do you understand us? | ||
| Tginnh |
We have to work more, harder, faster for less and be better than anyone else. That sounds like the mantra of corporate america. Yes, do all the above so the shareholders are happy and profitable. | ||
| Court |
>>>they sell around 4000 bikes a year including the blast. One of the reasons these internet discussions need to be treated with a grain of salt. . . .    | ||
| Slimdave |
I've been around bikes and dealerships for a long time. We used to brag about BMW being the 1%, actually .9%. Remember Ducati barely could get anyone to buy their outdated two valvers. Now Buell is on the edge of growth. With a couple of updates on current platforms (ie. 1125 ST, tall shield, hard bags, taller bars). I was at the Las Vegas H-D/Buell demo and I thought there would be more activity from the sales people to promote Buell. I realize the commission fees are different between the brands. We all need to help to make a difference. How about ride a motorcyle, save the planet? | ||
| Treysmagna |
Slimdave.....sounds like a plan to me. I have been doing my part for over ten years. Sell all your cars and just ride a bike. Well, I did have to keep a pick up around for my wife to drive and she has had to haul a bike or two | ||
| Dentguy |
"Remember Ducati barely could get anyone to buy their outdated two valvers." Just curious when that was or which were considered outdated? The Ducati Desmo 2V engine is a great engine and a sells pretty well in their current line up. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Court, did you just drop a bomb? Why is the Harley corporate statement lumping Buell with MV Agusta!?!?! (Or were they just trying to bury how few MV bikes actually sells in a year to keep investors from thinking they were idiots to pay that much for the company...) | ||
| Cash |
Court, I stand corrected. Slimdave, well said | ||
| Hughlysses |
Why is the Harley corporate statement lumping Buell with MV Agusta!?!?! That's the same thing I thought when I first read that. | ||
| Dentguy |
Why is the Harley corporate statement lumping Buell with MV Agusta!?!?! Probably just because the statement was focusing on specific Harley model lines (sportster/custom/touring) and they wanted to seperate everything else out. | ||
| Firstbatch |
From a financial reporting point of view it is because MV and Buell unit sales are "mice nuts" in the the big picture. If they separated MV and Augusta numbers in the 10K it would be like breaking out apparel from hard goods in the merchandise category. Of course internally HD has all sorts of stats they are not required to publish. Most investors in HOG don't much care about MV and Buell....they focus on HD's core business. All the more reason that HD may well just go back to there "core" business model in the coming years. Just saying... as there are tons of opinions on Wall Street about HD and its future. | ||
| Court |
>>>Why is the Harley corporate statement lumping Buell with MV Agusta!?!?! You asked the right guy . . . I hold a degree in accounting. In short, it's what's known as the "Theory of Immateriality". As much as we love Buells . . . . and to an extent the MV Agusta . . in the scheme of Harley-Davidson and financial reporting . . .think of the collective sum of the two as "and all others". The reporting structure is of no concern. MV Agusta will disappear long before Buell. | ||
| Firstbatch |
Court, I agree that the MV purchase was never a good idea and not well thought out....so did 99% of the investment community. MV produces something like 6,000 bikes per year of which less then 500 make it to North America. Whoopee. It is a forgone conclusion that MV will not be a significant part of HOG going forward. As you said the HD guys who pushed that deal thru are looking for jobs! As far as " Buells Uncertain Future" it sure would be nice to see them end up more like Ducati and be independent of HD. You probably remember the days of Ducatis ownership issues back in the late 90's when Texas Pacific Group took control. Now they are back in Italian ownership and producing something like 35,000+ bikes per year. Buell probably cant's break off and do there "own thing" at 13,000 units but I bet they could at Ducati's level. That would be sweet! Duc sells about 10,000 units in North America. So Buell needs us Americans to buy more or they need to get the Euros more interested in the brand if they want to increase sales. Court, do you think Buell can flourish and grow being part of of HOG or could they reach new heights of sales and profitability under new ownership? No Accounting degree here just a business owner who loves to invest in the market  | ||
| Chadhargis |
The Ducati I owned had a Cagiva elephant on it.  | ||
| Hangetsu |
On being better off by separating from Harley - I dunno. Still, the bulk of Buells on the road as well as the majority of current Buell sales still rely on the Thunderstorm engine. If they separated, could they take that platform with them. I woldn't give them much chance for survival having to rely 100% on the 1125 platform. On another note, I just received a survey form from J.D. Power wanting to know how happy I am with my 2009 Buell purchase. The cover letter is phrased to sound like they're just gathering information on motorcycling in general. Maybe so, but somehow, I doubt it. Were they hired by Buell to check up on customer satisfaction, or were they hired by Harley to determine if Buell's worth keeping? | ||
| Crackhead |
Buell/ MV Agusta makes up 5.2% of HD sales! Time to change from 3% to 5% lumping mv with Buell makes sence bc they are both small product lines. | ||
| Court |
I think in the end everyone will be thrilled. | ||
| Rubberdown |
Hang, I just received the Powers survey for the purchase of a '09 BMW R1200gs Adventure. I don't think the survey is brand specific. | ||
| Court |
I **think** they operate off of new vehicle registrations . . . | ||
| Florida_lime |
I think they are supplied from new vehicle sales provided by the dealers back to the manufacturer for the start of the warranty activation. I've received them from purchasing many new motorcycles, including off-road only. I believe the information is collectively shared. | ||
| Conchop |
I was once a dealer. The factory makes money from selling to the dealer. The factory makes sure all bases are covered and they do not lose a penny. The dealers make money from selling to you. They make sure they do not lose a penny. It turns into an easy business decision. If the dealer gets stuck paying floor planning for a unit that will not sell, they get very upset an will quit fooling with it. That unit becomes the proverbial poop in the pool. Everyone loses interest in losers. Its a human nature thing translated into corporate speak, If the unit is a winner, then it will be a welcome part of the inventory. The real trick is top to bottom marketing of products that are of a reasonably high quality, performance, and reasonably good styling. Price, product, place, promotion, and profits. I think that the existing infrastructure at HD is a good platform for introducing MV and the continuous development of Buell. All of it is in place. IMHO, HD needs to reevaluate its marketing of these sportier brands. Buell is being seriously under served; ie: have you seen a light bar for the Uly??? THe comfort kit should be one of the best selling add - ons that has ever been produced. Does the parts guys even know of its existence? I hate to see these successful dealerships leave money on the table. The arrogance of their HD success prevents the development of new markets well within their sphere of operations. We as customers would feel better served and they could make a bit of side money. It is a matter or reading this site and a few other brand sites. Dealerships need to see results. Once they are trained and equipped, we all get a win - win - win situation. Otherwise, the market suffers, top to bottom. | ||
| Conchop |
PS, Thanks for the sales numbers. I call it the score board. | ||
| Johnboy777 |
The Thunderstorm engine really is a ridiculous power plant for a modern race-inspired motorcycle brand. There’s nothing wrong with the Thunderstorm engine, it’s just not an ideal engine for Buell bikes. If that were not the case, there would have been no need for the 1125. HD is built on ‘nostalgia’ and the classic biker-imagine – Buell is not. You really can’t compare the two. Buell is/was built on racing and the Thunderstorm engine does not ‘currently’ fit that mold – although, it was a great place to start. Look, even Porsche started with air-cooled engines -good for them- then moved on. They are a technology and racing inspired company - much like Buell. How did Buell clinch the 2009 AMA Daytona SportBike championship? … not on a Thunderstorm powered (underpowered) bike. Buell needs to distance themselves from the HD air-cooled power plant and embrace the 1125 across ‘all’ platforms…. period! . | ||
| Prowler |
If all Buell offered was the 1125 engine, they'd be losing me as a customer. I want an engine with good HP, low maintenance, simplicity, great reliability, and good (or great) fuel mileage. The 1125 offers just two or maybe three of these things. I don't need or want 140 HP and the fuel mileage and service required that goes with it. Buell would be shooting themselves in the foot to drop the Air Cooled Engine configuration (at least as far as I'm seeing it.....for the Uly) | ||
| Johnboy777 |
""Buell would be shooting themselves in the foot to drop the Air Cooled Engine configuration (at least as far as I'm seeing it.....for the Uly)"" Hey Prowler, I disagree, the Uly would be a better bike with the 1125 power plant. Perhaps de-tuned or re-tuned for the Uly. Most motorcycle buyer don't buy motorcycles based on MPG...do they? It's more like MPT (miles per tank). . | ||
| Tginnh |
Why dump the airhead? Why not produce both in a Uly configuration? Then the market would decide if one or the other should be relegated to the scrap heap. | ||
| Treysmagna |
I most definitely look at both mpg and mpt. I commute on my bike every day and also travel on it. I want the most efficient bike I can get. In fact I spent a lot of time tuning my FLHT to get the best mpg I could get out of it. I also added a Safari tank to my DR. It may be a small part of why I ride I bike, but mpg is part of it. I will say that I think you make up part of the cost saving in maintenance and that is why I like a bike that is cheap to maintain. |
