| Author | Message | ||
     Jayh |
Brought my 2007 Ulysses in for it's 1k service. Rode my bike to the dealer, got there at 9:00am, was the first one in service and they assured me they would get me in and out as fast as possible. I proceeded to watch my bike sit outside for one hour before they brought in the shop for service. After an hour and a half, they bike was done. I looked at the bill ($280) and was charged for 2.5 hours of labor. They explained how the 1k service was a flat fee no matter how long it takes to service. OK I start the bike up, seems to run a little rougher and proceed home on the interstate(appx 50 miles). I pull off the highway and come to my first stop since leaving the dealer and the RPM's shoot up to 2000 -2500 RPM's. I get home, let the bike cool down restart and the RPM's continue to surge to 2,000 - 2,500 rpms in neutral. Call the dealer right away, explain the issue, question him on what they might have done to the bike to cause the issue and he tells me they adjusted the TPS. Now I have to bring it back. Can I damage the transmission driving the bike with the RPM's around 2,000 - 2,500 when I put it in gear or should I trailer it? Thanks | ||
| Johnnylunchbox |
Sounds like they did a TPS on a cold engine. I guess if it sat outside for an hour... | ||
| Andrejs2112 |
I would guess they adjusted the idle cold. I did it once and that's exactly what happened. Take your bike out and find a 5 mile stretch of straight road. Run it at 60mph at a constant rpm. Try not to vary rpm. This should take care of it. It did on my 06. Good luck. Get a manual and start doing maint. yourself. You'll save $$$ and headaches. | ||
| Etennuly |
The idle speed will 'float' around 2200 or so if it is set a little too high. The book calls for an idle speed of 1050. On some of the '06's and '07's they work better at 1000+or-25. If the idle speed goes even 25 rpm over the 1050 it can cause it to 'float' and hang at the higher number. Kind of as a function of timing and fuel maps changing at that a rpm. If they did the TPS reset without fully warming the bike, it will do this because they did not set the idle accurately. | ||
| Florida_lime |
+1 ! | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Flat fee BS! If they publish an hourly rate and had the bike for only 1.5 hrs then that is what I would have expected to pay them. How they can charge you a flat rate for time they didn't spend is just plain BS. Apparently they skipped over 1 hour of the things they were supposed to do on your bike. I'd have them explain how it is that you paid them 2.5 hours labor for 1.5 hrs of labor and then get a bike back that runs like shiite. I'd raise so much hell to their manager that they'd give me a 500 dollar leather jacket just to get me out of there. | ||
| Dentguy |
Jayh, Call them and tell them to come and get it. You paid them for a service and it now has a problem. | ||
| Froggy |
EG, what if they took an hour extra for 3.5hrs total? They don't charge you for that. My dad encounters the same thing with his shop, sometimes they run a little under, sometimes a little over. 75% of the time the book is close. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Froggy, This is just my cheap-assed opinion but they should pretty much know that the tuneup is going to run so much time. If it takes longer than normal they should eat the labor if they've told the customer that the tuneup is a 2.5 hr labor charge + parts. If it takes the shop longer, for whatever reason, the customer should not be penalized unless it is because of something the customer bunged up to make it take longer. If it takes only an hour the customer shouldn't have to pay 2.5 hrs labor just because sometimes it takes that long. They also should know that they have an hourly rate they have in full view at the service counter. If they know that the customer knows exactly how long the bike was being worked on then how in the heck can they then charge the VALUED customer for an hour of non-existent labor. Do they make more money screwing a customer ONCE and never seeing him again or do they charge him fairly for time spent and have a long term customer that feels good about bringing the bike back for service? Charging book is just a way to screw a customer and then have a lame ass excuse to throw in the customer's face when they complain. It'd be like charging for the time to take the whole seat pan off to install the comfort kit when in reality the mechanic just worked it into place in half the time without going to all that unnecessary disassembly and reassembly. A decent shop would only charge for time spent and not fictitious book. | ||
| Thunderbox |
Don't over react. Just think this through a bit. maybe they did the TPS reset but didn't adjust the idle correctly or adjusted it when the engine was a little cold. Just get a hex wrench and turn out the adjuster till the idle comes down to about 1050 but make sure you do it with a very warm engine. The adjuster screw is just to the right of and just below the left side air scoop. I take it the bike ran fine other than the idle speed. I understand you could be upset but 1 minute and everything could be just fine. When they do a TPS reset they turn that screw all the way out and then some. Then they reset the TPS to 0 then they turn the screw in till the idle speed is reached. Jut turn that screw out till it runs at about 1050. If that doesn't work take it back and let them know you are not a happy camper. | ||
| Ejc |
I thought the '07s and there after didn't need TPS resets, no? | ||
| Ratbuell |
The '08 up bikes don't have an idle speed adjustment. I believe there is still a TPS reset that can be performed with Digital Tech...but would have to double check on that. My UlyX is an '06 so I know I have both TPS and idle adjustment procedures. For shop time...HD and Buell have a book of labor procedures, with their assigned times. That is called Flat Rate. Flat Rate is the standard for the automotive and motorcycle repair industries. If the flat rate is 3.5 for a 1k service...it's 3.5 hours that gets billed. The way the technician makes a decent wage (believe me, it's NOT in their base salary!) is by doing a number of the jobs "under book". If, in an 8 hour day, a technician can bill 12 hours' work...they make money and feed their kids. Can it be a tradeoff? Absolutely. It comes down to a "good" tech versus..well, the alternative. A good tech balances taking enough time to do it "right", with being good enough to do it right, and quickly. Sometimes they (the bikes) fight back, and the tech, no matter how good he is, gets behind the book and loses time and money. This is where a good shop support structure comes in - a strong shop foreman can step in and assist a tech if a bike is fighting back. A good foreman can also spot - and should track - the comeback ratio for a tech and address any serial shortcoming issues before they get out of hand. But now we're getting into management theory... | ||
| F_skinner |
From the KV: To do a TPS reset on 08 and 09 bikes 1. Switch the Run/Stop switch to the Run position. 2. Turn ignition key on. 3. With the engine off, rotate the throttle grip from the closed throttle position to the wide open throttle position and back to closed position 3 times holding the throttle grip against each stop for one full second. 4. Cycle the key off and back on. | ||
| Dentguy |
If it takes longer than normal they should eat the labor if they've told the customer that the tuneup is a 2.5 hr labor charge + parts. If it takes the shop longer, for whatever reason, the customer should not be penalized unless it is because of something the customer bunged up to make it take longer. If it takes only an hour the customer shouldn't have to pay 2.5 hrs labor just because sometimes it takes that long. So don't charge me more because it's supposed to only take 2.5 hrs, but charge me less because it's supposed to take 2.5 hrs and it didn't? You can't have it both ways and only get charged straight time when it's in your favor. I've been on the tech end of these discussions many times and sometimes the book times aren't enough for the actual repair time. Especially when it comes to warranty stuff. Sometimes there is enough time and more. I'll assume the tech is doing everything that should be done for the service. He or she should be. If the tech is not doing everything that is a part of the service, then we have bigger issues besides the repair time. That said, if the tech gets good at his job, maybe because he has done it so many times, should he do it for less money? If a tech doesn't have to spend time to go look up torque specs because he remembers them, or already has tools laid out because he knows exactly what he needs, should he be paid less? Maybe he doesn't have to touch the service manual because he's seen it so many times. Those are things that save time. If he is doing his job correctly, but faster or more efficient than the book time allows, should he slow down or be less efficient so the customer feels better? Even though it makes him less? What about when a tech takes time to speak with a customer to explain what he did per the customers request. Happens sometimes. Should the tech then present a bill to the customer for taking his time to speak with the customer, which is not part of the service? Don't penalize the tech for being good at his job. Nobody wants to be taken advantage of, or feel like it. Just make sure not to confuse a faster than expected actual service time, due to a good tech, with being taken advantage of. For the same money and quality, I would rather have a tech tell me my service is complete a half hour early so I can be on my way than park it out back for an hour more than the book time just to make sure I don't complain about it not taking long enough (seen that happen plenty of times). All that said, I've never had good service at a Buell dealer, but I won't go there. (Message edited by dentguy on September 16, 2009) | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Dentguy, You seem to completely overlook that the dealer publishes their labor rate on the wall above the service manager counter in full view of every customer. Why would I sit in the waiting area for 1.5 hrs and then pay for an extra hour the shop doesn't incur? You can stand up for them all you want but either their labor rate is what they display or they are clip joint artists. When they charge 2.5 for 1.5 then they are screwing somebody. | ||
| Jammin_joules |
Most dealers don't just publish an hourly rate, they have flat book fees for standard services. I have often seen flat fees for 1k/5k/10k on Sportsters, Buells and Big Twins (twin cam & Evo) listed. Given these, the hourly rate doesn't apply. | ||
| Dentguy |
Electraglider_1997, I understand how you feel. The flat rate system just doesn't sit well with some people. I didn't overlook the fact that dealers post their hourly labor rates on the wall. I understand it's there. The fact is that the established flat rate time (in Jayh's case) is 2.5 hrs. The flat rate time is for 2.5 hrs worth of work, not 2.5 hrs of actual time. Some techs may take less than 2.5 hrs and some may take more. Maybe the service dept. should post a sign, explaining the flat rate system. Maybe an alternative would be for them to charge straight time? Customers would pay the service dept. straight time at the hourly rate for however long the job takes? This enables people to take advantage of customers (maybe a bike sitting behind closed doors) and techs to drag their ass while the clock is running. Look at the bright side. At least the flat rate system puts a cap on how much is charged for a predetermined service which protects the customer from being overcharged. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
The bright side is that I do my own service because of all the underhanded shenanigans that seem to be universally held sacred by bike and car dealer service shops. I guess they figure if they all play the same games then they can all get away with it. That is why a service manual is so necessary. Besides, we all know that the only things necessary at 1000 miles is to check and maybe adjust the primary and to change all fluids. That shouldn't take 2.5 hrs and that doesn't need a trip to the dealer. (Message edited by electraglider_1997 on September 18, 2009) | ||
| Etennuly |
I too was a flat rate tech, for many years in the automotive field. If the bike in question comes back into the shop for that re-adjustment on a flat rate basis there should be no charge. If there is, usually a tech would have to prove some other cause for the malady, not because he missed on an adjustment or made an error. He owes correct professional work for the price paid. On a hourly shop rate, if the bike comes back in for that errant repair, the clock starts when it goes back in and new charges occur. That is so for how ever long it takes to fix it, including the error and any new causes. It does not matter to him how long it takes and you pay for his time finding tools, parts, researching, re-testing, and actually finding the problem. When signing up at a shop for a repair, it is not unlike buying insurance that the job will be done correctly for a given price. It is kind of a gamble on your part. Flat rate for the given job is a specific price, usually you get the best technicians. Hourly rate for the given job is how ever long it takes, including paying a person to learn the procedure. This is where rookies work. Lacking knowledge, experience or tools, they cannot make a living on flat rate yet. Being an employer of both kinds, all of our work is done based on a flat hourly book rate. With the hourly guys I often loose money because they take too long to do a project, but because I guarantee a price based on standard procedure hours set in a book, I have to eat that loss, get that job done, and get on to the next one. In my business that is called competition based pricing, necessary when having wholesale repeat customers. The price rates you see listed on the wall of their office, is what you pay per flat rate book hour performed. It can also be the charge per hour of shop time. This is something that the service adviser should explain to the customer. | ||
| Jb2607 |
Probably another sound reason why most of us do our own service. The only time the dealer looked at my ULY was a warranty issue (fuel pump at 500 miles quit/wire/switch issue). BUT, it is not just Buell, NO ONE touches anything I own, whether it is Harley, Ford, Nissan, etc. UNLESS is it specific to the warranty and that has only happened twice. The other was a door hinge on an Isuzu Trooper back in 1989. |
