| Author | Message | ||
     Etennuly |
It is not a problem that all of them have had. I have only heard of about a half dozen cases here, but those of us with the problem are frustrated in finding it for sure. The sky is not falling. If that is what you base your decision on, it would be best if you avoid any motorcycle. Every brand has some kind of issue show up in a small percentage of their bikes that can be ugly. There are thousands of Uly's out there, few with this problem that I know of. If I didn't otherwise love riding this bike I would have no need for doing this kind of repair. This thing is so awesome to ride, I have no plans on getting a new one in the near future. '06 with nearly 40,000 miles so far, and some of the best permagrin miles I have put on anything I have owned. | ||
| Aceldama |
Well, the awesome reviews from this forum are what have me interested in the bike so I'm not deterred. I'm just expressing my interest in avoiding rebuilding the entire wiring harness due to chaffing and burning through. I think by using your pictures as a reference for where to add additional shielding/routing on a new bike the damage could be prevented. | ||
| Mnrider |
Aceldama,I sold my 03 SV650S to buy my Uly and no regrets. The Uly is a great do everything bike. | ||
| Etennuly |
That is why I put the effort into this presentation.  Others here have done the same, that has saved me a lot of time, effort, and money, which also keeps me riding! | ||
| Xcephasx |
did somebody say WIGGLE TEST?!! haha... geeze man, i took preventative measures with these wires a while ago when my ETS sensor wire was grounding on my engine. Same kind of deal, lots of tape and time. Etenu-i did look, and found, an obstruction in my fuel vent line and fixed it. i took my bike on a jaunt after school today, same road, same weather, same speed, same gear, same rpm range, and no blinky blink and engine stutter. im' not going to say "problem solved", yet but i'm optimistic. so unless i wiggled something back into place yesterday while testing my o2 sensor voltage, i'm thinking that the fuel vent problem/excessive pressure was causing my CEL. i'm considering adjusting my timing so my bike runs cooler all around. great pics! | ||
| Rwven |
If it makes anyone feel better, my Triumph Speed Triple chaffed through the wires at the steering head at 8000 miles. It was a little more exciting than just a blinking light though as it had smoke pouring out of it. | ||
| Etennuly |
X, glad to hear that is fixed! We had a major all evening thunder storm, so I didn't get any testing in. I am not real optimistic about this being my fix. No doubt these things needed to be done, but I feel there is something else that is the cause of the 'flashy light/run/skip', we shall see. I have been thinking about that coil, mounted to the bracket on the heads, possible 400 degree temperature exposure, combined with V twin vibrations, seventy mph uphill loads, almost always on a 90 + degree day.....we shall see. | ||
| Rays |
Vern, nice job on the detailed pics - I know how much time it can add to these sorts of tasks to maintain a detailed record like this so 'thank you'. I have had almost all of the electrical gremlins issues that you have seen but I have yet to have any issues around the injectors, TPS. I know where I'll be poking around this week-end! I also agree on the observation about the sky not falling. I recently had to repair a badly burnt stator to regulator connector on my Kawasaki ZX-12 and being an electrical / electronics guy I have repaired a lot of friends bike electrics over the years. I have yet to come across a brand that is immune from electrical niggles when they have clocked up larger mileage - bikes are harsh environments with heat & weather exposure. Add in the that shake, rattle & roll that we all love and wear and tear is inevitable. Good luck in your quest with the phantom skip-spark symptom - top marks for the positive attitude.  | ||
| Sekalilgai |
Vern, thanks for the good documentation. It is the community here on Badweb that adds to the Buell experience. When my Uly died, I was pretty sure it was the TB shaft and the only way I knew it was thanks to Badweb. I'd not let this 'issue' deter me from another Buell. BTW I had to trailer the Futura home last night when the voltage regulator died halfway home. | ||
| Etennuly |
Well I got in a 'fair' road test today. Have not been able to 'slab a hundred'. The last few times out(before the operation), it would "flashy light/run/skip" every time out, all it had to do was hit 70 mph. It would not reach terminal velocity of 88 mph to trip the flux-capacitor into doing the time warp. This trip today was at ninety degrees, riding two up, cruised at 65 and hitting 70 mph plus a few times. Traffic was too heavy to get it on better. I did 35 miles. No sign of "flashy light/run/skip" thus far. Way better than any time out lately. I will know by Monday how it really will be. I am loading it on the pickup with the wifey's Blast for a trip to Northern Pa, leaving Saturday. I am leaving there riding the Uly back home, stopping for a couple of days at the WVBR III. I will post back with results when I can. | ||
| Florida_lime |
Good luck -- I hope yours is sorted ! I pick mine up Saturday with a new ETS, combined with everything I've done -- we'll see ! | ||
| Etennuly |
Ruh-ro, looks like pick up is questionable. May have to ride the Uly to Pa.  I had to ride another twenty miles to town and back this evening. Still about 90F. Run it up to 80 a couple of times. No FL/R/S as of yet. Holding my breath in anticipation, after all, it has been "fixed" at least a few times over the past couple of years. | ||
| Xbimmer |
Etenn hope it's fixed! Keep an eye on the wrapped/shielded sections, I put some of that plastic shield around my O2 sensor wire first time I went in there. Several K later it had moved down against the rear rocker cover and literally melted away, been running the O2/ETS wires suspended since... I use 3M Super33 instead of regular vinyl electrical tape, seems to hold up better. I'd like to find a source of tough and fireproof wrap that won't break the bank though. | ||
| Florida_lime |
I was wondering about the heat resistance of that spiral wrap; I had just used some in the same area, but haven't run the bike since. I'd like to find a source of tough and fireproof wrap that won't break the bank though. +1 ! | ||
| Husky |
These folks have it. http://www.terminaltown.com/Pages/Page206.html Husky | ||
| Florida_lime |
Thanks, Husky !  | ||
| Teeps |
Florida_lime Posted on Saturday, August 08, 2009 I was wondering about the heat resistance of that spiral wrap; I had just used some in the same area, but haven't run the bike since. I used spiral wrap on the ETS wire too, I managed to spin it all the way to the end of the ETS wire. Unfortunately, all the wrap that was in the cavity melted... though I smelled melting plastic.  I have no idea what the temperature rating is on the wrap I used. But it was not high enough, for the segment of ETS wire in the cavity. | ||
| Etennuly |
I was thinking the same thing about its thermal properties as I was riding the other day. I haven't rechecked it yet, I'm thinking some aluminum foil wrap around the spiral wrap for now. Thanks for that link Husky! That looks like the right stuff. | ||
| Etennuly |
SO THAT IS WHAT IT FEELS LIKE!!!?!! I am a day late leaving for my vacation trip, just delivered the last customer vehicle, now I can get my stuff loaded. I just did forty miles at over 70 mph and the temperature is 91F. Before the "procedure", under these precise conditions, that speed + would lead to FL/R/S nearly every time. Today, every long up hill I encountered I flogged up to 80 - 85 mph. IT ACTUALLY DID IT! EVERY TIME! No FL/R/S. What an unusual feeling(thus far). Of course I won't really know until I have surpassed the magical 100 mile mark under these conditions, but it is so much better than it has ever been under these conditions. This was my third time out since the "procedure", and best test conditions yet. My prime suspect is the primary coil/ECM wires. The first time I had it fixed, a year ago, it was directly from a bared coil primary wire shorting on the BAS bracket. This year it had become worse, and that little wire got itself back down to where it rubbed the tape through! Fixed that and a couple weeks later all was worse than ever. Nearly every time it would hit speed at the higher temps, it would FL/R/S. Now, NONE! Is it fixed? I don't know. It will take a while before I can trust it, I have had it fixed(or so I thought) many times. At least I believe I have found a prime suspect. Those primary coil lead wires had their insulation melted/fused into each other. It seems to me that on a hot day, enhanced by running fast(aero load), add up hill, the heat over comes the wire insulation's ability to contain the electrical signal passing within. It then either grounds out to the ground wire, or shares signal with the other side of the coil. That would make the red light flash because the ECM is showing a short, and a cylinder to miss because the coil is not receiving it's signal to fire. This would directly emulate the 'run/skip' without having the engine over heated. It is just the theory of an elder body-man with many years of walking by open thinner barrels, but it seems to fit the situation. Sadly it is a problem that cannot be reproduced in a shop while hooked to testing equipment. Sometimes it will take 100 miles of riding to make it happen. If they tried to make it happen on a dyno they would do more harm than what is being fixed. Good luck guys! I'm quite happy with it at the moment, but as always, in perpetual test mode! Permagrin.....I'm back!(I hope). | ||
| Florida_lime |
 Hoping someone is on your side ! | ||
| Marc |
I have an 06 Ulysses (Dec 05 build) with 31,000 miles and have experience the exact same 70 mph Check Engine Light Flash Run/skip mode since about 22,000 miles or so FOR OVER A YEAR NOW. It spoiled Sept 08 Moto GP Chicago to Indianapolis after 3 hrs of riding. It ruined Oct 08 Wisconson Slimey Crud Run after one day of riding and forced me to turn back on day two. I Saw signs of CEL flash run skip in a May 09 long trip to Wisconsin and my last trip from Omaha to Chicago (July 09) was ruined by it. Sorry riding buddies, all of a sudden I can only do 70 mph as I got this damn CEL flashing at me and am loosing one cylinder! Take it out and flog on it with continual throttle position changes and the Uly runs fine, but once I get my high mileage Uly on the interstate and try to cruise with it...I just sit and wait and dread the moment CEL Flash run skip may appear. On my last long interstate trip, I was actually passed by a tour bus and semi's as I was forced to run for 300 miles at 70mph or less with the CEL Flash run skip situation from Des Moines, IA to Chicago IL. Man I was pissed off at my Uly on that trip. It ran awesome from Chicago to Omaha (70 degree air temps) as I was having fun and adjusting the throttle and speed a lot for passing, but the return trip was sure hell due to CEL Flash Run Skip. I was tired on the return trip and cruising on the way home 75 to 85 which likely induced CEL Flash Run Skip. 85 degree farenheit temps on the return trip also likely helped CEL Flash run skip ignite as well. I do ride in the cooler months and have never seen CEL Flash run skip below 70 farenheit, but my cooler month trips are no more than 35 miles which is not enough time to warm up wiring, not to mention the cooler air temps which would keep frame and wiring from heating up. Electrical gremlins are now so bad, that I am now experiencing problems at high RPM without the need for long run times to warm her up. At 4900 to 5500 RPM the bike will stall and drop off 1000 RPM with a backfire. This is not a 6400 RPM spark advance limiter, this is a sharp drop off with a backfire long before 6400 RPM. We put it on the dyno and we did not see this problem at all and were able to rev all the way to 6400 limit with no issues. My mechanic and I connected monitoring gear and he did a road test and experienced the 5000 rpm back fire and RPM drop and saw the data which showed the exhaust valve go from open to closed under wide open throttle tests on the street as it reached 5000 RPM. After reading this post the CEL spark skip pain I have experienced with my Uly on long trips for OVER A YEAR NOW is now becoming clear and I am rather peaved at my Ulysses and Buell for this reliability issue. Maybe my reliability standards are too high...when cars are lasting 150K w/out major issues why can't a freaking motorcycle last to 50K without issues like this cropping up? Every time I took my Uly in to my Buell/HD dealer after a CEL Flash run skip experience in the past year, my Buell mechanic and I scratched our heads, saw no trouble codes, and replaced the plugs, did a TPS reset, and said "must be fouled spark plugs which is common for Buells". My mechanic has now replaced spark plugs/done TPS resets every 2K miles due to my experience of 70 mph CEL run skip mode after long rides only to find out after reading this post that it is not foiled plugs, it is the likely the cheap wiring harness wires which are not robust enough to last on high mileage bikes. FRUSTRATING...If I could only show you the $100+ spark plug replacement/TPS reset bills I have over the past year. We've recently replaced spark plug wires and an O2 sensor as "shot in the dark" repair measures for CEL flash run skip after my May 09 experience, but CEL Run Skip @ 70 mph continues as I found on my Chicago to Omaha Round trip. Questions I'll pose to the group: 1). Does the 2010 Ulyssess have the same wiring harness and wires as the 2006 or has Buell improved the quality and robustness of the wiring harness in later models to avoid the pitfalls we are seeing in these 06 High Mileage Uly's? 2). Do I pull out the electrical tape and begin taping up the primary coil/ECM Wires like Etenuly has done or should I trade in my 06 Uly bike and get a new 2010 Uly with all(I hope) the problems fixed from earlier models? I'm for certain going to inspect the wiring harness before doing considering the 2010 Uly. I still love my Uly and Buell, I just can't trust my 06 Uly any more for long trips. What kind of Adventure Sport bike is that? For my Uly, CEL Flash Run Skip only occurs on long rides as everyone has mentioned after a few hundred miles run time to warm up the wiring/ECM whatever it is. It has been experienced so randomly for me (other than the long trip factor which is always a part of the situation), it has to be electrical in nature. My dealer ran it on the dyno for 80 miles with no issues the last time around. Of course the dyno has ventilation fans pointed at the bike and they did not have the bike setting at Interstate cruise at 75-80 mph the whole time. Frustrated and considering other two wheeled options! Marc | ||
| Etennuly |
Back from my trip. A sad dark cloud has come back to stalk my Uly. Crap. Got in several good hundred mile trip starts. I have found out through exhaustive, somewhat abusive testing, that the thing really is over heating. The FL/R/S is doing what it is supposed to do, the damage to the wires is a result of the heat, not that the wires are causing the bike to emulate the situation. Mr Bill helped me prove this on Saturday's WVBR III spirited 200 mile ride. I am now thinking fuel maps on the high end are leaning out when 'learned'. It runs on the edge of too hot most of the time anyway. It runs as lean as possible for emissions and efficiency. It does it's trick only when pushed over the edge with a ninety + degree day and an up hill load. I am getting the RSS cool kit from Buell. I am also getting into checking and resetting fuel maps(something I must now learn). My apologies if I have misled anyone into my belief that the wires were the cause of FL/R/S, and not the result of engine heat actually being the root cause of that, and the wire insulation damage. After I have some more rest, (just back from the trip) I will post some more on the subject and, what I found, and how. | ||
| Etennuly |
Now that the wires are in proper form, I am testing a theory about it being just hot enough to set off the ETS. When the FL/R/S hits, at 70 mph, to clear it temporarily, just close the throttle. It will then smooth out and run normally, until reattaining 70 mph. These things cool by air flow, oil flow, fuel/air flow, ignition timing. It is right at the edge, say +- 20F of overheating under load. When air temperatures go over 120 on hot summer pavement, it seems to me that it may be just over its ETS parameters. I don't have a hand held electronic laser temperature reading device like the one my brothers welding/cutting machine company has. It would be difficult to aim it at the heads with the covers on to see the temperature readings, but taking the covers off would not reflect a true reading. To test this theory I got the help of 'Mr Bill', the renouned comic claymation from the 70's Saturday Night Live skit. His job was to restrict some LSS intake air to see if the FL/R/S got worse or started earlier.  It worked. His fat little profile blocked approximately 15 to 20 % of the air flow into the LSS. The FL/R/S started within 20 miles, at 45 to 50 mph and was worse than ever. I had to drop to nearly 30 mph to get it to stop. When we reached a stopping point, I took his fat little air blocking profile out of the scoop and it went back to its 'normal' failure mode at 65 to 70 mph. Since we run our oil level at the bottom of the X's for the sake of it leveling out there, I put in an extra 3/4 of a pint to aid in cooling(every little bit helps). I pulled the spark plugs after this test. They have the look of lean and high cylinder head temperatures(didn't get pictures of them yet). Put in a new set of the HD 10R12AG's The plug wires are the originals at 40,000 they are looking cooked. New ones will be on the way. I removed the air box base to inspect the re-wire job. All looked well except for the rerouting of the front head breather hose. It laid on top of the TPS wires. I moved it to under them for less stress. When I moved that hose it looks like I also got the plug for the o2 sensor to stand up in its new configuration. No problem.....until I bolted the air box base down pushing it into proximity with the rear head cover. It ran great for about eighty miles or so, when the sensor wire melted through its insulation and was shorting the o2 wire to ground. I stopped and checked a few things and didn't find that until I got home. The wife was on her way back so we loaded it in the truck for the balance of the trip. Found and fixed today, it will be tested again tomorrow. Runs a lot better sitting still. Stupid rain storms. I am curious about those with this problem who have installed the new comfort kit. Did it help? I am leaning towards a little more cooling to potentially be the answer. | ||
| Rays |
Vern, this could be a complete red-herring but I've often wondered just how 'dirty' the air is behind that left-hand fork reflector. I would think it must create some issues for the air that you would want to flow into the left-hand scoop. I noticed it one day when I was looking at the bike from the front and proceeded to try and kill myself putting my hand down in the airflow while riding to see if there were dead spots. It seemed that there were and I removed that reflector (easy to do with a hair dryer without marking the fork) ages ago. Being only empirical evidence I haven't mentioned it before but in your case it might just add enough flow to tip the scales? | ||
| Etennuly |
Sounds like the comfort kit is the potential answer to lowering temperatures under the "hood". I will be doing that as soon as the economy will let me. I got the gremlins worked out of the wiring harness. Reset the TPS the other day, thanks to Mark(Orangulius' VDSTS). The Uly is running well, very smooth, very good all around, except that FL/R/S. It is 93F here, just got back from a 16 mile round trip, it did it twice at 60 mph!  Cooler weather is coming, so that will likely once again have it fixed until next July and August.(or until I get that kit!) | ||
| Mnrider |
Etennuly,is the fan running while its doing the skip spark. Maybe you could stick Mr.Bills head in the fan blades and see if his head gets chopped off or not as dramatic but you could hook up a volt meter to the fan wires to make sure your getting good volts to the fan. | ||
| Etennuly |
That is the kicker. It is on some of the times, other times no. Now that I have the found wire problems sorted it is back to FL/R/S and no codes. I am now going to test the ETS and ECM per SM for a failed sensor and or ECM. Thanks for that idea. I will also check that fan circuit for bad wires(I haven't been there yet). This fan was the replacement for the original. It now has 21,000 miles on it. It always sounds healthy when it is running. Hmmmmm.....there have been a few times that it seemed like it should have been on when it wasn't. Mr Bill will not be harmed during the course of my testing.....scared shitless.....but not harmed.  | ||
| Etennuly |
WELL.....Here is the thing. Having all the shorts and crossed wires finally fixed it was time to start the diagnostic procedures for the ETS. Followed the step by step in the Service Manual. The flow charts in the book are quite comprehensive. The last step failure for my ETS said ETS good, replace ECM. I was thinking something like "shit". I talked to Mark(Orangeulius), crazy enough, he still had the race ECM in his bike and had the original laying in his shed. Nice guy he is, he said come and get it! Plugged it in and the bike would only start and immediately quit. I was again thinking something like "shit". I figured why not do a TPS reset to get it to fire up. I knew I would have to redo it after the engine warmed up, so that is how it went. Cold TPS reset to get it to start and run, warmed it up reset it again. Set AFV, checked all components. On and off fan temperature operation was now correct. Mounted the ECM, put the seat on, geared up and went out to pound it for a hundred mile ride on an 85 degree afternoon.  I started out turning right to go to the parts store that was eight miles to the left. It was like, quite spunky! Very smooth, I could hear the air box honk like I haven't heard since I opened it up two years ago! I did some medium speed back road semi twisty stuff for about twenty miles, then about thirty miles of fast twisties. Rode into town to the parts store, red lights, slow traffic. The fan was on and off right when it should have been, lately it had been confused sometimes. Then twenty miles to the interstate. Fine so far! Honked on it out the ramp, up to 80 much faster and smoother than it has done in a while. Backed off to 70 and held it for a couple of miles.....no FL/R/S!!! Screwed it up to 85, held it there, still good. Ran it up to 100.....cut back to 75, still good. Held it there for a mile or so, then flogged it up to 110. So smooth. Backed off to 80, ten more miles to the exit.  Stopped at the light at the end of the ramp, fan on, hot like expected. Another red light, fan still on. Light turned green headed up the last ten miles of "home road" twisties. Fan kicked off per normal operations. Smoked it home that last ten miles.....NO FL/R/S at all! Faster, quicker, normal fan operation, smoother all around. Got to check fuel mileage now.  VERY HAPPY! Cheeks sore from smiling. Longest shot of Permagrin in quite some time.  I'm thinking that all the ground fouled and cross shorted wires, even though never blowing a single fuse, caused a burnout in the ECM. Please don't just run out and replace your ECM to fix yours. Do the tests in the Service Manual first. A bad wire can do it(cheapest), a bad temperature sensor can do it(next price up), mine happened to be the most expensive, along with the wire problems. I was told by a tech that he had seen one with a loose ETS causing intermittent ground. I'm sure more stuff can cause it, like maybe even an actual overheat problem, or a plugged oil cooler, failed fan, accumulation of leaves/dirt in air flow areas. Who knows? BUT if it is a bad wire(s....remember, my bike has had 15 separate wire failures) that caused it to kill the ECM, just replacing the ECM will only cost more time and money. This is the first time I feel confident in the fix, but my fingers will be crossed for sometime to come. Thanks to Mark and Mr. Bill, and all of you who have offered suggestions as well as listened to me whining and moaning as I suffered through this intermittent fiasco for the past two years. And to the factory trained tech's who said "it doesn't really do that", or "we can't replicate it", I told you I would handle it  , even though it should have been done under warranty back then. I know there are some of you guys suffering a similar intermittent problem. I wish you the very best of luck with it and hope this thread was of some help. | ||
| Etennuly |
Since writing that last post, I am wondering.....what if it is simply caused by the ECM itself? What if the ECM is dying because of its location near the heat source that the BAS had to run from? Is it me, or does there seem to be too many '06's with some miles on them, now qualifying for this problem? What if the wire problems are a non-issue? Just thinking in my sleep.  | ||
| Etennuly |
That question caused me to ponder another.....could this be what the comfort kit is really about?  |
