| Author | Message | ||
     Electraglider_1997 |
I took the air box cover off to give the ULY air filter it's annual washing. Looked good but I back flushed it with hot dish washing soap and water and then followed with plenty of rinsing water. I was looking at the rear of the baseplate that the filter resides on and I'm contemplating drilling some hole right behind the filter. This would draw air from right above the rear cylinder and by my way of thinking provide some air flow for the top of the rear head. Now mind you, I'm just in the contemplation stage and not sure that this might not be counter productive. I'm not real concerned with hot air being drawn into the air filter as I'm sure that plenty of hot air all ready is. Heck on either side of the air temp sensor there are the crank case vents spewing hot oily mist. Anyway, the more hot air that can be moved through this cave above the rear cylinder ought to be a good thing ....right? Please fell free to tell me what you think of this idea either pro or con or ridiculous. The second photo was doctored to show what I'm referring to.   | ||
| Hdbobwithabuell |
With all the "Cold Air" intakes out there, I'm betting that sucking in this hot air would be less than ideal for performance. | ||
| Glenn |
Cold air is denser and can absorb more fuel. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Glenn, You got me thinking that maybe it is a good idea. Hot air is more like riding at higher altitudes where less fuel is metered thereby getting better mpg. Might just be worth experimenting with it. Before I take that baseplate off to drill the holes I'll be sure to find some hole plugs if I find I need to put things back to normal. | ||
| Thetable |
I would be a little concerned about drawing in hot air from the back past the IAT sensor, while the front is pulling much cooler air, thus confusing the ECM. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
It'll draw air from 360 degrees so to my way of thinking it will only be a bit warmer. I'll let the empirical evidence speak for itself either good or bad. I'm going to do it today. If it all goes to hell in a hand basket then I'll report that too. Chances are I will not notice a difference. I'll be paying close attention to the swing arm oil temp. | ||
| Snojet |
If you have ECMSpy, you could check further into the running condition. I would be curious if your fuel mixture (AFV -ect..) changes to compensate for the hotter air and more of it. | ||
| Longdog_cymru |
Hot air is bad, cold air is good. Don't do it! | ||
| Mnrider |
I agree with Longdog.Thats why cars and our bikes pull air from the front. | ||
| Xbimmer |
I was under the impression that Buell for '07 eliminated the intake slots on the right side of the air cleaner cover, just above the exhaust, in order to keep from sucking heated air into the box. Besides, a RSS will take care of all that nasty hot air that may be stagnating in the V...   | ||
| Scooter808484 |
Hot air bad... will contribute to pinging. Also, while I don't know the FI algorithm, there is an intake air temperature sensor, so any potential increase in fuel mileage would be negated as the FI would compensate for the increased temperature. Not sure how it would cool so much anyway, taking hot air from around the outside of the head, sucking it into the head where all the heat was created in the first place. I don't like it! | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
I did the mod exactly as shown in the photo above except that the holes are 1/2 diameter and perfectly round, used a 1/2" Forstner bit. I also finished making the airbox cover look like swiss cheese. I had added holes to the air box cover a couple of years ago but this morning I really did a number on it and when I took it out for a 20 mile ride I could really notice more of an intake honk than before. So far the ULY runs the same as before.    | ||
| Mnrider |
You're a rebel EG.  | ||
| Johnboy777 |
Am I nuts, or is it that all the holes in world drilled into the 'Air Cleaner Cover' (the holey part in the photo above) won't make a bit of difference if you put the 'Intake Cover Kit' (the shiny outer cover) back on. Isn't air intake, restricted by/to the screened intake in front of the Intake Cover Kit (the half-moon screened area by the gas cap) - so that even if the surface area of the holey Air Cleaner Cover is huge - its still restricted by the smaller of the two...right? . | ||
| Froggy |
The air intake draws air all around the airbox cover. Its not sealed with the front vent being the only opening. | ||
| Johnboy777 |
""Its not sealed with the front vent being the only opening."" The gap, at least on mine, is minimal...say about an 1/8 inch. . | ||
| Froggy |
And? Your vacuum cleaner sucks more air with a smaller hole. (But thats part of the whole suction thing) Install a MAF into the throttle body and see if there is any measurable difference between running with the outer airbox cover on or off. | ||
| Swimmonkey |
A buddy of mine did this to his air box and base plate. We went out in the Texas Hill Country to ride some county dirt roads. We got caught in a rather nasty thunderstorm. When we were riding home, we made an abrupt stop at a stoplight and quite a bit of water flushed out onto the front of his frame. When he got home, he removed his top cover and pulled the filter. The filter was soaked with water. Just a little personal observation I thought I would let you all know about before you go "crazy with the Makita". | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
My bike is running just fine ...so far. Oil temps are the same. Idles good, as always. Intake noise is throatier, even at idle. Only about 80 degrees today when I took it for a 30 mile run, some of it at 75 mph and the oil temp topped at 200 at the swingarm when I stopped at a light and looked. As for the air cleaner getting wet, so what? Have you ever gone past a semi in the rain and it is like a hurricane of water. The cover keeps the bulk of the rain out but even if it gets wet, it is sucking the moisture through all the time. Ever notice how well the motor runs when it's raining out? The gears in my brain are turning thinking about ways to cool that rear cylinder that haven't been tried before. One thing at a time though. I'll be the first to back off if I notice anything detrimental. I want to see if the mpg is affected pro or con. | ||
| Johnboy777 |
""And? Your vacuum cleaner sucks more air with a smaller hole. (But thats part of the whole suction thing) Install a MAF into the throttle body and see if there is any measurable difference between running with the outer airbox cover on or off."" Of course, why didn't I think of that? I guess my point here is that the 1/8th inch gap around the Intake Cover and the small front screen are the limiting factors here with regard to the Intake Cover Kit (or airbox cover, as you call it). Drilling more holes in the Air Cleaner Cover seems pointless to me - its the outside or Intake Cover that needs to be opened up. . | ||
| Hangetsu |
I don't remember which magazine or issue, but I recently read an article about airbox covers and apparently there is a purpose to their presence, size, shape, and even the material they're made of. The article went pretty deep into the science behind this. They actually function much the same way as a tuned header, muffler, or expansion chamber in the exhaust. The vacuum in the airbox creates a pulse that works in rhythm and time with the firing of the engine and actually helps the engine get the proper amount of air when it needs it most. If what this article stated is true, tampering with the airbox cover could very well diminish engine performance, not help it. In a drag racer where the only throttle opening of concern is FULL - a fully open intake might be the best, but in a machine where performance at all RMP ranges is necessary, an "open" air box may not be the way to go. Comparing this with exhaust; I once had a 250 Suzuki Enduro bike with a "tuned" open expansion chamber. I thought the thing was pretty fast, but it was noisy as hell, so I put a Supertrap silencer on it. The difference was amazing. With the silencer and the resulting back-pressure the bike gained several HP at all RPM ranges. The sucker hauled a**. Back pressure and vacuum at both ends of an engine's breathing system seems to be a necessity. We all grew up in the era when manufacturers gave little to no attention to intake and exhaust and their effects on performance. When you bought any vehicle, car or bike, the first thing you did was open up the intake, install a manifold, a header, etc., and you would be assured of gaining several useful horsepower. Well, we live in a different time now and with most vehicles out there, especially bikes, there is little if anything to be gained through simple bolt-on changes to intake or exhaust. In fact, you will often lose performance in the RMP ranges you use the most. Read the comprehensive pipe comparo by American Sportbike if you doubt me. We all love tinkering with our toys, but before we begin dropping $$$ on new pipes and cutting our engines components to shreds, we might want to first do a little research and find out if our expense of time and $$$ is really going to make a difference. | ||
| Blk_uly |
+1 hangetsu  I am a firm believer that the engineers who spent countless hours perfecting this bike new what they were doing. I recall the debate over the the right side air scoop and how some anonomys person chimed in about various temp. guages hooked up to a computer to see what benefits if any could be gained. if it ain't broke ect. I will leave my bike all stock for this reason "Viva eric and the elves!" | ||
| Johnboy777 |
Our bikes are tuned with the EPA regs in mind - that's the rub. Historically, air-cooled engines were set to run richer. But due to the EPA regs, we now end up with muffler valves, skip mode and super lean, hot-running air-cooled engines which have a much narrower window acceptable of operation. Buell has done a good job, but they are faced with far too many conflicting parameters with our air-cooled engine. Its just the nature of the beast. IMHO . | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
I'm all for doing a bit of experimenting now and then. As much as we all think the sun and moon sets on Erik and his elves let's not forget that Erik himself got started as a back yard tinkerer. Also don't forget the recall because of bikes falling over (side stand). Mufflers replaced because of rust. ECM updates because those engineers rushed a product. I could go on and on and will if asked. Oh yeah, almost all 06 owners have opened their air box covers because the 07's are opened way more than the 06's. If you don't like changing things on your bike then don't. And as for the elfish engineers perfecting these bikes, that's a laugh. Those guys compromise all the time and wait till the customers start to bitch or the magazines bitch about this or that. Why do you suppose the 08 ULY has greater steering lock. As an engineer with a master's degree I can tell you that nothing is ever perfect and just when you think it is, some other guy proves you dead wrong and it makes you feel lousy because you didn't see it first. Nothing I've ever done to my bike is not reversible and I've quickly reversed a few things I've done. Today I rode a good 40 miles and the fan never came on and the oil topped at 190 at the swingarm. Granted for full disclosure it is 72 degrees outside and sunny. But still, I expected that fan to come on and it didn't until I shut er down. I had it going 70 to 75 mph quite a bit of that time on the interstate highway. Sounds exactly like that 08' ULY I demo'd at Sturgis last summer with all the intake honk. I'm waiting for the temp out to get up into the 90's to see if that base plate mod becomes a problem that needs reversing. I'm also waiting to see my mpg at the end of this tank. | ||
| Hangetsu |
I agree with you on many points Electraglider. There will always be many fine points that will never be completely sorted by the factory. There are simply too many things for any team of engineers, no matter how many or how smart, to address. Products need to simply be released and the final bugs worked out as they surface and the XB’s do still have some room for refinement, particularly the Uly with its adventure touring intentions. However, all I was saying in my post above is that an engine’s intake, fueling, and exhaust are all tuned to work in harmony with each other. When you change one thing, you’ve pretty much got to change everything to reap any benefits and from what I’ve seen even those who have (new pipe, open airbox, and new fuel map) have seen minimal gains. Their engines probably run cooler. They might even pump out a little more power on top (which isn’t always the objective when designing an engine with a specific purpose), but I will question the actual gains and their worth compared to the cost, time, and effort spent. From what I have seen through reading countless pages of Badweb posts in addition to actual data published by manufacturers and resellers of performance equipment for Buells; you can do what you want to the Thunderstorm engine regardless of EPA standards and you’re not going to squeeze much more out of them. All I’ve really seen is horsepower being moved from where you want it to places where you don’t – at least with regards to the Uly’s intended purpose. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Hangestu, I've never been one to worry much about the horsepower. I like hp and tq but usually won't spend any money chasing minimal gains that can be purchased with mufflers and the like. I get more excited in trying to cure or make headway on nagging problems like mirror shake, wind turbulence, leg heat, rear cylinder cooling, oil temperature. You won't ever see me buying under seat blankets when any rider worth his salt can fashion something for himself. Heck I even made my own windshield ( kind of, since it is a heavily modified Cee Bailey that just was terrible as purchased ). Anyway, long story short, I am impressed to no end by those on this site that do their own thing, repair their own bikes, figure things out for themselves and then share these things with the rest of us. My hat is off to all of you guys that are doing it your own way. Where is a hat's off clip art???  (Message edited by electraglider_1997 on July 17, 2009) (Message edited by electraglider_1997 on July 17, 2009) | ||
| Hangetsu |
Well stated Electraglider and I’m in full agreement. Once my warranty’s expired, there are many issues I look forward to tackling myself. I guess what started me on this was the picture of your Swiss cheese airbox. I was actually contemplating doing the same thing a while back. I read a lot about the “open airbox” mod offered by American Sportbike and was considering going that way, but when I saw all the hassles involved with rerouting breathers, cables, and the like, my first thought was, “why not just fill the airbox full of holes and be done with it - accomplish the same thing without the expense or the hassle.” Then I read this article (I’ll try to find it again) about the function and design of the airbox and its effect on performance (EPA regulations have nothing to do with it). Its size, shape, the thickness of material, and even the material it’s made of have a direct effect on the tuning and performance of the engine. After reading this, I reconsidered perforating my airbox and figured it might be better off left as it is. Now, you have filled yours full of holes and seem pretty happy with the results. Since you’ve not experienced any change in the way the engine runs, I look forward to hearing of any other effects your mod may have had. Anything that will get that rear cylinder to run cooler is definitely something I’d be interested in. Cheers. A- | ||
| Bud |
i "swiss cheesed" my 06 uly airbox, and it made 4 hp more on my bike ( on the dyno ) and that is mainly because the iat sensor is cooler, the airdensity table is now at a ideal 100% while driving, with the closed airbox it was at 95% ps i did not feel the 4 hp gain while driving | ||
| Etennuly |
EG, I'm guessing that the intake holes in the right side of the '06 inner air box were designed to do exactly what you are doing. It will suck some of the hot air off the rear cylinder and push it out the pipe. That is doing several things good and bad. It likely helped the emissions program with a faster warm up and allowing leaner running even though you are sacrificing a bit of power, and probably changed in '07 in part to help stop pinging that is in part caused by that hotter air charge and leaner condition. And of course, it would help in a small way with the heat on the right leg and under the seat by sucking it off the head and out the pipe. As long as it doesn't make the engine ping, like so many '06's did, I think you may have a decent idea there. It would be interesting if you had one of those point and read thermometers to read a before and after temperature on a spot such as the rear spring with your set up. I too, am hats off to those willing to do something beyond bitching about a problem. Hell, you bought the bike with your money, the factory doesn't focus on your bike anymore, it is gone. They are building the next ones. A lot of things people do to "aid" their bikes are silly, some are cool, some are smart, and some down right intelligent and helpful to the next generation of them. A particular piece that comes to mind is that "Bazootie" that Crusty designed and built enough of to prove that they would not only work, but were needed. Now they are standard equipment on the Ulys. I hope he gets a royalty for his invention, I doubt he would ask, he is just a good guy, wanting to help. And a step further, I really hope the factory names the part "Bazootie" in their engineering manuals and parts books as a tribute. Thanks Crusty, Two years and mine hasn't needed an adjustment yet.  | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
My Crusty made bazootie is doing its job also. Probably Buell feels that the design of the bazootie is partly theirs because without the ULY it would not exist. Convoluted thinking but probably true. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
These motors are nothing more than large air pumps and the freer you let her breath the better. Notice that most harleys do not have air boxes, just chrome covers over the air filters to keep the rain from directly contacting the filter. There is validity in optimizing muffler design with the correct amount of back pressure and pipe lengths and other things. Ram air also is used to create positive pressure on the intake track for more power. |
