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Mike_dinger
Posted on Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 04:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I'm running a Jardine exhaust, and have a lot of popping on harder engine braking. Is this due to a too rich or too lean condition? I do have ECMspy, but never really got into using it, I just like to ride the damn thing.

I don't want to get rid of the Jardine, because I like the way it looks and sounds. Would a repack help? Would the popping be caused by deteriorated packing?

TIA! - Mike
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Tootal
Posted on Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 06:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Mike, popping on decel is either lean or the exhaust leaking. My guess it's lean since you haven't richened it up over stock. I have used ECMSPY but I'm a long way from an expert. Check over at buelletinboard.com and check out Mikes expertise. He's amazing although a little hard to read sometimes. Froggy knows a lot too and he's on here. Might PM him for help.
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Froggy
Posted on Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 07:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Deceleration backfire and popping is causes by unburnt fuel igniting inside the header or muffler. Here is some stuff I have read online about it:


quote:


No ifs ands or buts, that’s what causes it. But the bigger question is how does gas get there in the first place, and that’s a bit more complicated. Generally, there are a variety of ways it gets there, and a variety of things that can make the backfiring worse. But there’s a kicker, and something you should understand before we go any farther:

A motor in perfect tune will exhibit deceleration backfiring.

Therefore, just because your motor is banging it up, doesn't’t mean there’s anything wrong. And consequently:

Getting rid of the noise means de-tuning your motor.

Yup. If you’ve jut got to eliminate that popping, you’ll have to accept the fact that your motor is going to be forced to run rich to do it, and that isn’t necessarily a good thing.

Ok, so you’re driving along at some given rpm, and suddenly you decide to decelerate, and you reduce the amount of throttle. This causes an “overrun” – that is, the motors rpm is turning faster than the fuel provided can support, so the motor begins to spool down. This causes a couple of things to happen.

First, when you close the throttle, you are also closing the throttle plate. This reduces the air and fuel flowing into the motor, and increases the vacuum (lowers the pressure). This results in less air and fuel in the cylinder during the power stroke, which in turn results in a lower pressure in the combustion chamber. The A/F mix burns faster in proportion to the pressure applied? Well, when we reduce pressure this way, the mix burns slower. This results in two things happening.

1. The lower burning fuel generates less heat, and the cooling effect of the non-burning fuel tends to “quench” the flame front, or slow it down even further. Because the mix is burning much slower, the exhaust valve can open before all the fuel is consumed, and the unburnt fuel is ejected into the exhaust.
2. The engine designers, in order to promote smoother idling and better combustion, retard the spark when the throttle is shut, and this results in the mix being lit later.

So, now we end up with unburnt fuel in the exhaust, and burning fuel being ejected into the exhaust, and bang! Backfire.

So the bottom line, is: That backfiring is perfectly normal and expected. If you’ve just got get rid of it, that’s up to you. You’re entitled to set your motor up the way you want, and your goals are your goals. But don’t refer to it as “fixing” the popping. Rather, the correct way to think of it is “de-tuning a bit to get rid of the popping”.

You will get worse gas mileage by getting rid of it because you will have to run richer on decel inorder to raise the chamber pressure engough to burn all the fuel.





You can fatten up the fuel map and it will reduce it, but you can't completely eliminate the popping; it’s a nature of the beast. The stock pipe pops a little bit too, but it’s hard to hear, and it sounds more like a "Pfff".

In ECMspy, go to your fuel maps and the bottom two rows are what you want to play with. The higher the row, the more your throttle is open, so we want the bottom rows as that’s closed throttle. Going from left to right on the columns is the RPM that each event is happening. Pay attention next time you are riding at what RPMs the popping is happening at for you, but typically it’s around 3000. From there, increase the value of the cells a little bit, and make sure to do both the front and rear cylinders. Do only small changes at a time, and before you do anything backup your EEPROM and maps. Also before you start tuning, make sure your TPS is set correctly. If you are unsure of anything, stop and get help. It might be best to get the bike dynoed and tuned by a pro, or purchase a map from American Sport Bike.

Have fun; don't sue me when your bike explodes. : )
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Tginnh
Posted on Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 07:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Per Tootal, check the simplest problem first - an exhaust leak. Since you have changed the exhaust system, I would insure this isn't the problem.

My vintage british bikes were notorious for exhibiting deceleration backfiring.
Especially that Norton that Tootal lusts after.
Sealed the exhaust and the problem was solved.
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Tootal
Posted on Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 08:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Mike, you mentioned repacking the muffler and although that won't fix the popping it will take the sharpness away if you need packing. It just so happens I just read an article by Joe Minton, who has been tuning Harley's for a long time, and he said not to repack with normal fiberglass muffler packing. He suggest using fiberglass cloth in the 10 oz. variety. Wrap it around until you reach a thickness of at least 3/8". More is ok. Take some stainless safety wire or mechanics wire and wrap it around the cloth to hold it in position. He claims it will not blow out and you won't ever have to repack again! He also mentions that a properly packed muffler will perform better too!
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Mike_dinger
Posted on Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 10:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Thank you all for the input. To be honest, the popping doesn't exactly bother me, just wondering if prolonged backfiring will cause engine damage. I think will give the repacking a try first, and then look into messing around with ECMspy.
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Id073897
Posted on Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 11:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Getting rid of the noise means de-tuning your motor.

This is bullshit. Decel popping takes place in overrun condition where the throttle is (almost) fully closed, an area which is NEVER used for driving the engine and there's no impact of changes in that area to those used while riding. That's what the many cells in the map are good for, otherwise just one cell would have been sufficient.
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Johnboy777
Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 05:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

...fatten up the bottom two rows from left to right - here's an example (not mine).
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Mike_dinger
Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 07:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Thanks Johnboy, I will give it a try this weekend.
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