| Author | Message | ||
     Bigkuri |
Hi All, I posted this over on UKBEG and thought it may be interesting for those here too - anyone that reads both forums please excuse the double posting! A week ago I fitted one of the new Free Spirits TFi on my 2008 model Uly. http://www.trojan-horse.co.uk/prods/296.html Wow  The bike now runs like it should have in the first place. With no access to ECM Spy on the 08 models I had been pretty stuck with the stupidly lean ECM to meet EU regulations. Cold start - no more stalling. It used to start for a few seconds, then choke and stall. It would do this 1 to 3 times, and then grudgingly settle into a truly awful cold start idle, snorting, popping, revs all over the place. Now it is a different machine. Starts from the off and stays started. The cold idle is smooth, no weird coughing through the air filter etc.. Performance - I may get it dyno'd. It's a lot stronger, but how much is hard to judge. I'm not sure what the stated power gains are meant to be, but it "feels" like a good few HP extra. Especially in terms of the smoothness. I’ll go out on a limb and guess 5-7 bhp?..... From new the bike had a horrible shelf at 5k revs. Getting fatter headers and a free flowing exhaust helped this a lot, as did making sure that the TPS was reset (the twisting the throttle 3 times trick on the 08s). It's now extremely hard to tell if the shelf is still there at all. I'm using standard settings (no instructions?...) and so thinking of taking it to a tuner with dyno who knows about TFi units and getting it tweaked (anyone know somewhere around London?). Occasionally at steady "strong idle" (say 1.8k to 2k revs) it will stumble, which I'm sure can be tweaked out. Likewise it needs a bit of beans for a smooth start - low rev starts it bogs down. I also think that the nightrider.com O2 sensors will help as that works on the closed loop. Worth every penny - it is truly a remarkable change, and goes to show just how crap they have to tune bikes now to get through emission requirements. The reason I got the TFi over the remus poweriser is that there is a slim chance that one day I’ll fit big bore kit/cams... And the TFi can be adjusted accordingly. Fitting the TFi took small hands (which I don’t have!) and about an hour. A little worried that the wires are a wee bit close to some very hot bits in the engine?... | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Wouldn't it be easier/cheaper to just buy the USA version of the factory ECU? | ||
| Pirnie |
Any change in fuel mileage with the TFi? | ||
| Trojan |
Wouldn't it be easier/cheaper to just buy the USA version of the factory ECU? As far as I know they are the same, and all are set up to run very lean, just like most modern injected sports bikes. Any change in fuel mileage with the TFi? Making the bike run richer will reduce fuel economy by between 5% and 10%, depending on how much fuel you add. | ||
| Bigkuri |
Any change in fuel mileage with the TFi? With just the as-bought default settings, and only based on two tanks of gas, I've reduced my mileage by about 5mpg. 5mpg less that is extremely worthwhile. A factor here is that it is still a "new toy" and so I've been hooning it in a mad fashion. When it soon becomes an "old toy" I'd guess that my actual mileage reduction is more like 3 or 4mpg. The tuning I intend to get done will be for power, not economy. | ||
| Bigkuri |
Wouldn't it be easier/cheaper to just buy the USA version of the factory ECU? Same ECM in the states. I would be bold enough to say that all the 08 models run too lean, although many many owners of 08 don't see/notice/have any symptoms (in which case lucky them!). I believe that the only difference is that the EU bikes have a CAT and skinny headers. Removing the CAT and skinny header problem made the bike LOTS better than it was new, however this TFi has taken it to a new level. I should be on commission for Trojan!... | ||
| Keith_mahoney |
Are you positive the same ECM programs are used in the US and EU? I only ask because my 08 with about 2k miles on it runs real rich. you can really smell the unburnt fuel in the exhaust when it is warming up and I have yet to even get 40 mpg. I had a TFI on my Suzuki and loved it but don't ever plan on changing this bike up. I hate how looking for more HP loses you some down low torque. (Message edited by keith_mahoney on November 21, 2008) | ||
| Bigkuri |
Not sure Keith - I simply don't know enough about fueling, and so would risk putting you wrong. All I really know is that it runs better on idle, and especially on throttle. I still have some issues on warm closed loop - hence my other search for these O2 sensor things from nightrider.com. On cold idle I used to smell a bit of fuel sometimes, but the main thing was it stalling, coughing, and "snorting" through the airbox (before stalling yet again). Especially through winter months. This is now pretty much gone so far. When running though - the plugs were always on the unhealthy side of lean burn, unless I had touched the throttle when warming up, in which case the plugs were fouled (which thinking about it points at an over-rich start?). I'm not trying to say I have the knowledge here - just observations, and it certainly is running better. Saying all that - I'm pretty much 100% certain the ECM's are the same USA/UK/Europe, as the factory update on the 2008's was the same globally. I also only get 40 ish on mpg - but mainly as I ride pretty quickly - "binary" throttle action sees to that! One other thought is that 2k miles is still new - the engine really seems to loosen up over 6k miles. | ||
| Bigkuri |
The other thing worth saying is that so far with my mods: K&N filter, TFi, FreeSpirits Reverso exhaust, 45mm equal length Free Spirits headers, oil breather mod, drilled airbox - has only resulted in both more HP and more torque. Need to get this thing on the dyno to get a real idea... Had it on a dyno (the same one) when new, and then after modding the exhaust (kind of like a special ops) it went from 90bhp to 96bhp. (Message edited by bigkuri on November 21, 2008) | ||
| Ourdee |
USA, 08, xt, 2000 miles, cold start( 10 deg. f ), smell unburnt fuel, mine coughs snorts and stalls a couple of times. I let it idle for 2 minutes before taking off. If not, it spits sputters and tries to stop. I haven't been in England since 84. | ||
| Red_chili |
I hate how looking for more HP loses you some down low torque. Getting more power from proper fueling never costs you down low torque. | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
So what did you do with the 02 sensor, is it still hooked up? All Buell's with FI use a Alpha N type of engine control. They all fetcher a "Closed Loop" area and a "Closed Loop Learn" area where by design the bike wants to run at 14.7:1 A/F ratio. While in the learn area if it is outside 14.7 A/F ratio not only does it correct itself, but remembers how big or small the correction is. That correction is what becomes the AFV reading, but remember AFV skews the entire map including the "Open Loop and WOT" area. So a rich condition in closed loop learn causing the AFV to drop to less than 90% would also lean out the top end the same 10%. However the system does have some safeguards to prevent an excessively lean condition, but my point is if this TFI unit is or is not the 02 sensors the ECM needs to know and again all those controls are inside the ECM. To date the only two ways to get at them is on a Race Only bike using a Henry Duga ECM or ECM Spy on everything up thru early 80 ECM's. ... Word of caution if early 08 ECM's are re-flashed by the dealer to correct some off idle issues, it updates them to the latest configuration and locks us out using ECM Spy ... Terry JT&S Performance | ||
| Bud |
and i would point out you can't change front and rear injector time / spark timing separately , doing this correctly is what makes a buell smooth as a baby's behind just received a other 2008 model "solution" to test, i think we would even bother, to try it... but as promised to the supplier we will test it, it's a pot meter device you need to plug in between the air intake temp. sensor... bike will run richer if you will fool the sensor.. but good results.. well i doubt it a better solution is for now ( until xb9 works his magic ) the daytona twintec twin tuner | ||
| Bigkuri |
So what did you do with the 02 sensor, is it still hooked up? Still in progress - hopefully I'll hear something soon... You are dead right about 08 flash - I was one of first to get it in UK, and would not have if I knew it would effectively lock me out of the ECM Spy route. EDIT - I thought on a glance you were talking about my other thread over getting the O2 sensor from nightrider.com. On second thought if you are just asking about o2 sensor with the TFi - yes, it is still hooked up, and it has an inline lead which plugs into the O2 wire. (Message edited by bigkuri on November 22, 2008) | ||
| Werewulf |
i wonder why buell has locked out ecm hackers and wont sell a tuning device without a racer license... harley will sell you a screamin eagle race tuner and you can change anything that you want... i would think that the same rules would apply to both companies.. | ||
| Red_chili |
and i would point out you can't change front and rear injector time / spark timing separately , doing this correctly is what makes a buell smooth as a baby's behind So what are you running in terms of front/rear timing then? | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
Buell is trying to keep CARB and others from opening up a can of worms, ie the race license. Some of the data/code/address used to develop programs like Direct Link and ECM Spy came from the original Buell Kimbal DOS program. If you can get one of those you can learn a lot about how the ECM works. The latest changes from Buell will now require a rewrite of the programing code because it now uses a different "Firmware" version. So without the correct code addresses for everything it just does not work. We may be able to get the Direct Link people to work on it for the 08, as they have a profit incentive to make it work. As all of you know ECM Spy was and still is free, so without the addresses, it's a lot of serious reverse engineering (AKA Hacking) to override the new firmware. ... Terry JT&S Performance | ||
| Skinstains |
Probably a dumb question, but, couldn't you just buy an 03-06 ECM and spy that one ? | ||
| Froggy |
Skinstains, no. 2 different fuel injection systems. DDFI 3 has more buttons  | ||
| Bigkuri |
No. Differences in the engine of pre-08's. Would do nasty things. | ||
| Skinstains |
I figured it to be a dumb question. | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
IMHO the only dumb question is one we never asked. DDFI-3 had many improvements such as going from cam position to crank position sensors and maintaining idle speed using a Idle Air Control and not the TPS. So you can't go backwards. The crank position sensor is a major engine mod, everything else is external and could be swapped with 03-06 DDFI-2 units. So again the easiest way will be if we can talk the DL folks into spending the time and energy to make DL work on the 08's and beyond. ... Terry JT&S Performance | ||
| Bud |
So what are you running in terms of front/rear timing then? depends on what the bike likes. really every engine is different, you really need to measure the af front vs rear and then fine tune the ignition timing, but that's really fine tuning, on my uly we came with only slip-on and K&N and good tuning to 88 ft/lbs on the back wheel, and a very nice tq band from 3000 rpm up to 5500 rpm i have more than 81 ft / lbs in my right hand i wanted to change to the xb9 primairy to pick up , to give a little more punch , but after tuning, the bike is kick ass fast.. friends with a S and R model can't keep up with me down side, my rear tire is getting flat spots real quick | ||
| Id073897 |
So again the easiest way will be if we can talk the DL folks into spending the time and energy to make DL work on the 08's and beyond. I'm pretty sure no one will waste any effort on analysing and developing as long as the firmware might get updated unintentionally and all changes are lost. On the other hand, if you really really really wanted to do so: write your own firmware and bootload it into the ECM. It's possible now. Regards, Gunter | ||
| Conchop |
The Dobeck is a well thought out fuel controller, especially the gen3. There is a lot of work done with the Victory's and they are proving reliable and effective. Power Commanders can take gas away which can work on super tuning efforts on "built" motors. Apparently, there is no need to take away gas from our 08's. The 08's have a an issue with running a smooth program and that must be that learning curve that buelldyno guy is mentioning. Sometimes my 08 is smooth, sometimes buzzy. A little WOT helps it, BUT, there certainly is room for improvement. I am seriously considering a gen3. There is a lot of testing going on out there and the results are getting better. The real trick is to get one of these things on a dyno with a 4 gas exhaust gas analyzer to see if there really are any boogers in the learning curve or confusion between the O2 and MAP sensor. In the long run, a fuel controller converts an EFI into a tunable carburetor that can adapt to varying altitudes. | ||
| Red_chili |
On the other hand, if you really really really wanted to do so: write your own firmware and bootload it into the ECM. It's possible now. Gunter, I don't have an '08, but are you just saying to clone the pre-updated '08 EEPROM to roll back the firmware changes, then ECMSpy is good to go? If I understand correctly, this would not be done via ECMSpy. Do tell the specifics on how, for us marginally tech impaired folks. (Message edited by Red_Chili on November 24, 2008) | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
In an effort to find a fix for the late ECM's and hoping we could re-flash them back to the earlier configuration. We wanted to try and understand what the latest Buell Tech Support ECM re-flash really did inside the EEPROM. So we had an early 08 tuned using ECM Spy. Then we saved the EEPROM and Map. I took it to the dealer and we did the re-flash, Surprise, surprise the firmware changed and while we could read the new data and EEPROM we could no longer re-map. So in fact we took one for the team, but now know to advise all not to allow the dealer to re-flash if you have an early bike. I'm pretty sure no one will waste any effort on analyzing and developing as long as the firmware might get updated unintentionally and all changes are lost. Gunter the Direct link folks do this for profit and are continuing to develop DL for the new H-D as well as other bikes. so since we can't use ECM Spy I am sure they will be willing to sell DL Keys to unlock the ECM and id so we will continue to develop and sell maps. ... Terry JT&S Performance} | ||
| Conchop |
Question for Bigkuri, Has your check engine light come on after the dobeck installation??? | ||
| Bigkuri |
Hi Conchop - not even once. Now done about 300 miles on it and no check engine light. | ||
| Bigkuri |
It is worth mentioning that when switching on the ignition the green and red lights on the TFi flash, which according to the manual means it has no communication with either the front or rear injectors. This is wrong - as the connections are just fine. I researched this on badweb - and quite a few cases of this in the past TFi units, and the resolution seems to be to ignore it. | ||
| Conchop |
Bigkuri, Is there any popping on de-acceleration?? Are you running a stock pipe?? | ||
| Bigkuri |
There used to be a lot of popping - with Free Spirits aero45 headers, FS reverso exhaust, and K&N filter  Now with TFi there is less aggressive popping, more like a "burble"!? Nothing like it used to with just the free flowing exhaust only. It is now what I personally class as acceptable backfire on deceleration. I'm not saying it is a silver bullet to all troubles, but it has worked out bloody brilliantly for most of my issues I had with the bike, as well as adding more power. Going to the dyno week of 9th Dec, so should get some proper data then... | ||
| Conchop |
Your exhaust is an unusual looking but apparently logical way to handle the boom. Your dyno results should be interesting, too. | ||
| Froggy |
Get a refund! They put your exhaust on backwards  |
