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Froggy
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 06:46 pm: | 
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Just got home from my dealer with the bad news. Over the last few days my Ft_bstrd volt meter has been going crazy. I went to the dealer, they rolled it in the back and did a test, showed the battery was fine giving 12.88V, but when they did the charging test it got 12.47v idle and 13.14v when revved. They said my stator is failing because I got too much stuff on my bike. That’s the part I can’t figure out; because I remember a while back calculating it and coming up with plenty of spare juice. I figured if anything, the extra goodies will keep my VR from going nuts and then killing the stator. Either way thank you Ft_bstrd for the volt meter mod, as it sure as hell saved me from getting stranded.
Here is the stuff I am running on the bike
Constantly running:
Garmin Zumo 550 15 W maximum at 13.8 V DC
GXM30 XM antenna for Zumo
Veypor VR2 (150mA)
Occasionally I will run with both headlights on, but not often. I also got PIAA 5100x lights but they almost never get used (2x 55w). I also got the plug for a heated suit, but it’s been a while since I had to even think about it.
Am I over doing it here? I am not an electrical wiz but I was sure the bike would be fine. Of course this happens right before I go to tie in my Siebel air horn and my Motocomm digicamcorder. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 07:32 pm: |
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Ask them to explain, in principals of physics, or at least accepted electrical engineering, how overloading a fixed magnetic field stator coupled to a shunt regulator could ever "wear out" a stator.
The bulbs and the heater are the only things drawing enough current to matter. If you draw too much, your battery won't charge at low RPM's.
Did they check the resistance between stator pins? Any funny smells from the primary? |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 07:40 pm: |
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Froggy, does your bike have the fabled '77 connector? |
Froggy
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 07:53 pm: |
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Reepi, worn out was my word, not there’s. They did tell me that I was overloading it and that’s what is causing it to fail. I doubt they checked resistance, as they only had the bike for about 10 minutes when they rolled it into the service bay, hooked up to the computer and ran the tests.
I changed my primary fluid last Thursday, it didn't smell funny. I used Formula+. Also, I believe this has been going on for a while just getting worse over time. Lately the volt meter was getting to green less and less, I just didn’t really think anything of it, as it wouldn’t dip into yellow or red while cruising on the highway like it does now.
Jlnance, i assume it does, i didn't get a chance to pull the cover off and dig it out, i will go check it in a few minutes. |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 08:04 pm: |
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The stator is going to output whatever output it's going to make given the RPM. Minimum is at idle. Maximum is at redline.
The stator will produce the same power even if you have nothing hooked up to it. All that happens is that power in excess of the amount specified as the capacity of the battery is shunted by the voltage regulator back into the stator (ground) and into the voltage regulator housing.
Having too much stuff attached to your stator will result in dim lights, malfunctioning hardware (insufficient current), an undercharged battery, weak spark, and eventually there will be insufficient spark to keep the engine rotating; stator stops charging.
Three phase stator with 494W peak.
Two headlights: 110W
Two supplemental lights: 110W
Zumo: 15W
Other lights: 40W
Total: 275W
Surplus: 208-219
"Wearing it out" Total crap. |
Xbimmer
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 08:07 pm: |
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They said my stator is failing because I got too much stuff on my bike.
What a load of BS.
Maybe you should ask them how, in their infinite wisdom, is the new XB12XP supposed to survive with all the power-draining equipment that a normal LE motor runs. That explanation is an excuse for their ignorance which sadly seems to be very widespread among many of the dealerships we are forced as Buell owners to rely upon for warranty coverage.
My dealer told me my stator was bad, I told them probably the VR also, they said "No, they checked it", they installed a new stator, still didn't work. I insisted they recheck the VR while I waited. They couldn't get the 77-connector apart to do the VR check. It was fried.
I never spent another dime there, they have ZERO credibility with me. At the risk of being branded a whiner I believe that the machines are far better a product than that which graduates from HD tech school.
Check your 77-connector Froggy. |
M_singer
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 08:33 pm: |
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That sucks Froggy. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 09:01 pm: |
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Uploading pics now, the pin for the black wire on the female end of the connector is very slightly melted. It doesn’t look as bad as most of the others that have been posted here, possibly because I caught it early.
M_singer, you win, finally my Lightning has let me down, after 26k miles, and something went wrong that wasn’t my fault 
Here are some pics for you guys!
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Lost_in_ohio
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 09:16 pm: |
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Well I was putting off dealing with that connector......You convinced me to deal with it......
So what is the standard fix???? Die electric grease or something fancier, I saw some guys using trailer connectors.....What is the more elegant solution.
I will do a search but please post up your responses...... |
Lost_in_ohio
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 09:31 pm: |
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Remember this thread.....Sounds like the problem was kinda looming
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/384852.html |
Froggy
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 09:37 pm: |
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Yea i was thinking about it. Infact even before i got to the dealer i was thinking of posting a thread on what everyone elses colors were doing on the volt meter. It was the first mod i did when i got the bike, i never got a chance to ride before putting it on. Bought the bike used over the winter with 15k |
Froggy
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 09:38 pm: |
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Oh yea what about amperage? Was i overloading it that way? |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 09:42 pm: |
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Froggy- my connector wasn't melted at all, there was just the tiniest black spot on one of the male blades. I wound up with a stone-dead battery on the side of the road ~50 miles from home. Disassembled the plug, polished all the connectors, tightened up the female sockets with needle nose pliers, and charging system works like new. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 09:49 pm: |
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Should i give that a try and see what happens? |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 09:59 pm: |
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That is (IMHO) more then melted enough to compromise that connection. |
Lost_in_ohio
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 10:13 pm: |
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froggy I think your connectors are beyond a simple cleaning. |
Xbimmer
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 11:26 pm: |
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Hellllooo 77-connector! 
That is (IMHO) more then melted enough to compromise that connection.
froggy I think your connectors are beyond a simple cleaning.
Froggy if you want to repair it the individual 77-conn parts are available, but you'll need a sharp guy at a Buell-enthusiastic dealer. The new VR I bought from Glendale BHD in CA had the male connector half in place, Serge at the parts counter was able to find the individual parts for the female half and they had them in stock(!).
The only reason I replaced the 77 was because of warranty. Now my bike's out of warranty I'll eliminate it.
Unfortunately you may find afterward that the bad 77 has damaged the other parts, let's hope not. |
M_singer
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 06:07 am: |
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Xbimmer what are you going to replace the 77 connector with? |
Lost_in_ohio
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 08:18 am: |
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see the thread I linked too above for xbimmers repair idea.
The only problem I see with changing the connector to a non-stock connector is field serviceability. You just need to make sure you have a soldering iron along to affect the repair with the non stock connector. |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 09:23 am: |
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I would be very tempted to just not use a connector at all. A couple of staycons to join the wires together should do it. |
Red_chili
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 09:43 am: |
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Oh yea what about amperage? Was i overloading it that way?
Fatty gave you the answer. W=V*A (Watts equals volts times amps.) It is wattage that you need to be concerned about. If anything you did not draw ENOUGH! But that is not what caused the connector to fail. The connector got ohmic and acted like a current limiting device; voltage was dropping across it due to a compromised connection, which only fried it worse.
Tell that to your *&#*$% come-up-with-a-quick-answer-without-knowing-what-h e-is-talking-about H-D tech. |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 11:29 am: |
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This is why I LOVE my servicing dealership. Their first assumption isn't that a non OEM add on piece is the cause of the problem.
They troubleshoot the problem including the additional pieces and determine what the actual cause is. Sometimes the problem IS what you have added (Chad's relay caused a short). Sometimes it isn't. Anyone who can add, can determine maximum capacity vs. draw.
Anyone know what the draw is for the ECM and the actually ignition system? |
M_singer
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 08:35 pm: |
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>>>>>The only problem I see with changing the connector to a non-stock connector is field serviceability. You just need to make sure you have a soldering iron along to affect the repair with the non stock connector.
Unless you are going to carry a spare voltage regulator on the road with you, there is no chance of needing a connector to make a "field" repair. A couple of wire nuts would work in an emergency anyway.
These connectors seem to fail often enough that eliminating them makes sense especially on an out of warranty bike. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 11:10 pm: |
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Just a quick update, I put it all back together and now its working great, better than when I bought it. Perhaps reconnecting it gave a more solid connection on the 77 connector. Either way I dropped it off at the dealer so they can take care of it, weather it’s a new stator or VR or connector or something. |
Rsh
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 12:26 am: |
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I have had that very same problem, connector 77 meltdown. If it was the ground side of the connector that melted as mine was, I would also check the ground connections at the battery and the frame. Make sure they are clean and tight. I do this check periodically and have not had any connector 77 issue's since. |
Xbimmer
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 02:53 am: |
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Xbimmer what are you going to replace the 77 connector with?
If it was the ground side of the connector that melted as mine was,...
Seems to be the norm:
The "A" side as marked on the connector IIRC, goes to ground.
Anyone know what the draw is for the ECM and the actually ignition system?
Ft_B I'm guessing from something I recollect from somewhere here or whatever that 11 volts from the battery is required just for the systems to become operational. The OSM states that at 11.8 the battery is dead, I believe that range. When I went to a Dyna III on my '78 BMW if the battery ever dropped into that range no matter how many times I kicked it the ignition wouldn't wake up. With the points ignition all you needed was a trickle.
I'm pretty confident that my SAE connector will work fine, just need to get around to it soon. I'm not sure I'll use dielectric grease in there though. Might use copper-type antiseize since that fixed the starter relay contact points burning problem that my 100S was throwing at me for a bit. Also fixed the contacts in my daughter's power windows in her Saturn. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 09:10 am: |
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Based on that 77 connector, you have nothing to loose with that SAE one.
That Deutsch connector has a lot of current going through a little bit of metal... |
Buelldualsport
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 09:14 am: |
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Deutsch make a couple of different lines of connectors that will handle the current requirements for the existing 77 connector.
We utilize them on the race chassis without any issues on a daily basis.
If anyone would like a sample, send us a PM.
Thanks |
Werewulf
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 10:03 am: |
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http://www.namzcustomcycleproducts.com/Deutsch%20C onnectors.htm |
Teeps
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 10:40 am: |
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Which ever way the "77" connection is fixed; do a voltage drop test on the completed connection.
There should be less than .2volt drop across that connection, with the engine running. |
Rsh
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 11:15 am: |
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Adding to my previous post, when I did my initial trouble shooting, the black wire coming out of the 77 connector was noticeably warmer to the touch than the red wire with the bike running. That was an indication to me that there was to much resistance somewhere in the black wire line connection besides the connector itself. That is why I suggested checking the ground connections physically...just because the connections "look good" is not an indication they are good. After making sure the ground connections were good, clean and tight I performed my experiment again and ran the bike, the black wire did not feel nearly as hot as in my initial test so I considered that a sucess. In my case like I said I do check the ground connections periodically and have not had a problem since. YMMV
(Message edited by rsh on August 21, 2008) |
Red_chili
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 11:50 am: |
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There does seem to be a problem with various ground connections. Trivial to fix, but when your lights stop working or you lose your horn it can be extremely annoying.
I wonder if we have wagged our fingers at the 77 connector when in fact too many things have been finding ground through *IT* instead of their own ground points?
Still, I think a connector like that should have enough headroom to handle it.
(Message edited by Red_Chili on August 21, 2008) |
M_singer
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 09:36 pm: |
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I was just thinking that there is no point to replacing the 77 connector with some other connector. The reason being that if the stator or VR have to be replaced you are going to have to cut and slice b/c stock parts will not plug into your modified connector. Why not just eliminate the connector altogether with a permanent wire spice? |
Prowler
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 10:59 am: |
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I've got a question regarding the 77 connector. From the pictures I've seen, it looks like the ground side of the connector is the one that consistently fails. If in fact this is the case, is there any reason that this black wire from the regulator couldn't just be grounded to the frame right out of the regulator? Seems like an easy fix. Then you'd only need a single robust connector from the regulator red wire to the positive side of the battery. Is there something I'm missing here? Thoughts from any electrical guys out there? |
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