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Buell Motorcycle Forum » Big, Bad & Dirty (Buell XB12X Ulysses Adventure Board) » BB&D Archives » Archive through May 06, 2008 » Gremlins . . .'Lectical Gremlins, left me at the roadside » Archive through April 26, 2008 « Previous Next »

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Doncasto
Posted on Sunday, April 20, 2008 - 01:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

My 2007 Uly (4700 miles - I know, I am ashamed of myself) became the first of three Buells I have owned to leave me stranded by the roadside. Yesterday's episode was the third in a series with the Uly in the last month.

In each case I have been about 15- 20 miles out when all the gauges go dead and the "check engine" light show a very dim illumination. Pulling over to side, turn off the engine, turning on the ignition again gives power back to the instruments and even enough juice to fire it up, although only barely. The check engine light remains on.

I have been able to get about another 2-3 miles before the battery becomes too depleted to keep the engine running. I have disconnected my accessories (Stebel air horn, PIAA auxiliary lighting) without any change in the scenario.

The first time it happened I was close enough to home to walk back and get the truck/trailer. The second time I had to call AAA, who sent out a fellow Bueller with a flatbed truck. Yesterday I was laid up on the shoulder of I-25 only 3 miles from my intended destination, High Country HD/Buell (the good news about this is posted elsewhere). I had placed a call into Formost Insurance to engage my "Treveline" Towing and Roadside Assistance" benefits with them. There was some frustrating discussion about whether or not my policy's $50 benefit would cover the entire cost of the 3 miles to the dealership - WTF!!!!??

While waiting for a call back confirming that a truck was on its way, a fellow motorcycle enthusiast . . .Richard "Wiff" Withey pulled over in pickup truck (with trailer!) and asked if I needed a hand. As it turns out, Wiff is coming back from an ABATE ride, has plenty of room in the trailer and is the district representative for AMA. I arrived at the dealer a few minutes later . . .bike intact, and with a new friendship as well as new incentive to join the AMA.

The bike now sits in the service department at HCHDB awaiting diagnosis. I would be interested in hearing from anyone that has had a similar incident with an X-frame. I will update as more information becomes available.

Don Casto
Boulder, Colorado
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Midnightrider
Posted on Sunday, April 20, 2008 - 02:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Had a similar episode once, took it into the dealer who checked alternator, etc and never found anything wrong. After that I had several episodes where the bike wouldn't start in the morning until I put it on the battery charger. There were often several days with no problems between the bad days. Ultimately, I found a ground wire to an aftermarket accessory ( brake modulator) that had obviously overheated and nearly burned through. Replaced that and I've had no problems in over a year.
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Stevem123
Posted on Sunday, April 20, 2008 - 02:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Hi Don,

I think you may have the dreaded voltage regulator connector problem. The connector in question is located behind the front sprocket cover and is the one with two large wires. These wires come from the voltage regulator and tie into the wiring harness at the connector. At the wiring harness side of the connector one wire is red and the other is black. The connector is a deutch type connector. The problem is there is sufficient current through these wires that a poor connection will heat the connector enough to melt the plastic and oxidize the contacts resulting in no current reaching the battery. The dealer replaced my voltage regulator under warranty but the fix was only temporary as the harness side of the connector remains un-repaired and the fault will return as mine did. Luckily I caught it before it left me stranded again and I corrected the problem by eliminating the deutch connector completely. I cut the connector from the wires and used two small copper split-bolts to splice the wires back together in a much more positive connection. I then wrapped the splices with good heavy rubber splicing tape to seal them from moisture and insulate them from contacting each other or any other metal parts of the bike.

This has been covered in other posts concerning the voltage regulator failures other people have had.

I feel the deutch connector is not hefty enough for the current and thus is the crux of the problem and why I eliminated it from the equation.

I am an electronics/electrical technician and the fix I did was the best way I could think of to eliminate the possibility of having the same problem re-occur.

Check it out for yourself by pulling the connector apart and looking inside at the metal parts of the connector paying particular attention to the color and shape of the female friction connector on the wiring harness side. You'll probably see some melted plastic confirming the diagnosis.

You can replace the connector as others have but I opted for a better fix myself since I am out of warranty and wanted a more permanent fix.

Good luck!

BC Steve
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Rays
Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 07:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Don, the '77 connector' is definitely worth a look. This will cost you a couple of zip ties and half an hour of your time and may save you a lot of head scratching.

I caught mine before it actually melted the connector and managed to clean it up and more importantly tighten it up to make a better connection.

I put this simple guide together some time ago and a fellow Badwebber posted it on Google docs:

http://docs.google.com/view?docid=d4rbxwr_20dq5khf

I have diagnosed another XB12 that my dealer had in for intermittent charging recently and that hadn't got to the point of damaging the connector either so you never know your luck.

Please PM me if you need any help with this one . Your dealer may be well aware of the issue but if they haven't come across it you can at least point them at it to take a look.

Ray
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Doncasto
Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 03:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Update:

I got the call from High Country Harley Davidson/Buell (Frederick, Colorado) just before 0900 today. The bike was ready for pickup. I was happily amazed that they had gotten to it in just a couple of days as I know their service bays have been full and the back lot is packed with bikes waiting for space on the racks.

The voltage regulator was diagnosed as faulty and was replaced. . .and I had a sense of BWB deja vu. They reset the TPS and AFV(?) sensor. They also adjusted my clutch for me, and the clutch lever now feels "right" for the first time in 6 months. Note to self: Find out how they adjusted the clutch . . .

Before temping the fates and heading out for an obligatory 30 mile test drive (the electrical system has always taken a dump at around 20 miles) I am going to follow the gracious and benevolent suggestions of Messrs Rays and BC Steve . . .the connector will be thoroughly examined and reconfigured if it shows any of the problems they noted. Thanks, guys!

At the risk of sounding like to much of a cheer leader type for High Country HD/Buell . . .they once again went the extra distance for me. Not only did they get my bike back to me in quick order, as I was loading it up one of the employees came out and told me the right front tire on my F350 was looking under inflated. Sure enough, that sucker was on its to being flat. The offered to have me pull the truck and trailer around into the back lot to fill up the tire. When I got there one of their techs not only filled up the problematic tire, but then went all the way around the truck making sure that none of the others were under inflated as well. As I have said before, this dealership is one of the absolute best in the treatment of their customers.

Thanks again to these wonderful people at HCHDB, I am to the point where my admittedly suspect memory is having a hard time remembering those less than stellar moments at dealerships that operated with attitude and contempt rather than affinity and consideration.

Don Casto
Boulder, Colorado
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Road_thing
Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 04:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Don:

I recommend that you alter your test ride
protocol from "30 miles" to "19 miles!"

rt
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Doncasto
Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 05:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

RT:

I am sure the neighbors will thinking I have finally gone "all the way 'round the bend" as they see my doing my 30 mile test drive . . .composed of 60 1/2 mile loops around the block. I think we are thinking along same lines. The object of the drive being not to get stranded 19 miles from home again.
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Doncasto
Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 09:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Interim Report:


Burnt Plug (female side)


This is what I found when I pulled the plug apart. The female side has obviously been arcing to the point where the plastic plug has melted. I have not been able to remove the female connector from the plug even though the other female connector came out as described. I am now operating under the assumption that the melted plastic seized the female plug, and that the normal removals procedure is not feasible.

Scenario #1 - Restore the system to original configuration. The parts manual shows a part #Y0145.02A8 - Terminal and Seal Set(VReg side female), and Y0126.02A8 Terminal and Seal Set (battery fuse side- male) Assuming that these can be ordered from my local dealer, I could replace melted parts, terminals and seals with new? I am assuming that would need both sides as the interim repair would surely damage the male side as well. This does nothing to address the problem with the stock connector being insufficient for the current it handles.

Scenario #2 - One side of the connector is both clean, unmelted and undamaged. I reassembly this side after removing the wires to the damaged side of the plugs. I seal it with silicone (other suggestions?) to maintain the waterproof seal that seems to be the intent. I then use the split nut connection described in BC Steve's post for the wires that were compromised by the melted connector. My inept approach, born out of ignorance of things electrical, would be to heat shrink the split nut and then seal it with copious amounts of silicone.

Scenario #3 - Do exactly as BC Steve has done. Remove the entire connector from the system in favor of split nuts. The two application questions would be if my heat shrink idea is acceptable (or not) and how best to seal these connections so that they do not suffer from moisture intrusion?

I would appreciate any comments and suggestions for those of you with more sparky credentials than myself.

Don Casto
Boulder, Colorado
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Lost_in_ohio
Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 09:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Would a little conductive grease help? It would help displace any water, Plus it would help make a better connection and reduce the heat in the connector.
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Sekalilgai
Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 10:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Hey Don
That connector looks like a flavor of the Delphi Metripak (I think series 280) connector. I've never been such a fan due to the stamped contacts especially with high current/vibration application here. Alternativey the Deutsch DTP series (which is the larger version of the style used on the diagnostic connector) is available with machined contacts. It is rated for submersion as well.

But...I'm with BC Steve...eliminate the connector. Solder/splice them together and sleeve it with adhesive lined heatshrink (aka dual wall). Not sure if abrasion is an issue since I haven't peeked at mine yet.

The rest of this stuff is ...only if you're curious...

Metripaks are also available through Waytek (but with min orders).http://order.waytekwire.com/IMAGES/M37/catalog/220 _034.PDF

Ladd carries the Deutsch stuff, here's a link to the slicksheet: http://www.laddinc.com/shared/datasheets/01Deutsch _DT_brochure.pdf

Adhesive lined heatshrink is available from Allied, Digikey, Newark. Here is one sample:
http://order.waytekwire.com/IMAGES/M37/catalog/220 _113.PDF

I'm tempted to take a peek at my connector 77 too.
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Buellinabq
Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2008 - 12:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Alright, all this talk just made me go take mine apart. Mine looked perfect still. Shiny clean inside. No melting and no smelly burning. GOD I HOPE I didn't jinx it now. I pushed the wires together pretty good I hope, then I pushed on the wires to try to push it tighter inside the connector. 6500 miles.

(Message edited by buellinabq on April 23, 2008)
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Rsh
Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2008 - 12:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I had the same situation as you one day on the way home from work. In my diagnosis I performed the electrical tests in the service manual to test the charging system IE: stator and voltage regulator and all tested positive. I put everything back together and the system was charging again but while it was running I wiggled the connections for the stator and voltage regulator and the voltage regulator to the wire harness and noticed the voltage regulator to wire harness connector was much warmer to the touch than the other connections especially the black wire side of the connector so I hit the off switch.

I unplugged the VR to wire harness connector and it was melted on the black wire side of the connector and looked just like your picture. Anyway I scraped the melted plastic residue off the terminals with an xacto knife and made sure all the ground connections were clean and tight, I started the bike again and did the touch test for the VR to wire harness connection and now it did not feel any warmer than the other connections so I deemed this exercise a success. Within a week I ordered a new connector and terminals with seal set from the dealer and replaced the melted connector. I have not had a problem since but now I am more vigilant making sure my ground connections are good. I hope you did not have to pay for the new VR because It may just have been the connector that was the issue.
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Tipsymcstagger
Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2008 - 12:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

This is ridiculous. If this is chronic enough of an issue that Stevem123 was able to accurately predict the problem, then Buell should address this immediately with a recall. In my line of work, we call this a "safety of flight" issue.

I think I've read that Buell CS monitors this forum. If so and you're listening, take the ball and run. This needs to be addressed across the board.

Tipsy
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Stevem123
Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2008 - 01:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Hey Don,

I'd say go with both wires (removing the connector completely). My thought is that if one side failed then chances are that the other side will fail at some time also.

Going with the split-nuts the connection is much better than even a solder splice. reason being that the wire has been hot and oxydized. This makes it very hard to get good wetting with solder and you'll end up with a cold solder joint.

Insulation is more important here since you will no longer be relying on a friction joint for good contact. I used thick splicing tape. The stretchy rubber stuff is best for this application and it will also waterproof the connection. No silicone needed.

Will last forever and can still be taken apart later if needed.

CAUTION! Mark the wires from the volt reg before you cut the connector away as they are both black. Mix them up and now you have a real problem.........

Good luck!
BC Steve

P.S. Nice pic! Wish I had done that.
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Xbimmer
Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2008 - 06:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

http://docs.google.com/view?docid=d4rbxwr_20dq5khf

Doncasto, did you check out RayS's doc? That's a great pic you posted, I think it shows perfectly what he describes as the 77-connector problem. Heat and/or vibration deforms the contacts with self-destruction as the result. He was a great help to me when I was going through my charging system problems.

My dealer actually told me they didn't need to replace my VR when my stator failed, that their "checks" indicated it was ok. I even explained the 77-connector problem I'd been reading about here on BadWeB. Boy were they surprised when the new stator didn't work at all. I demanded they check the connector, and they couldn't even get it apart!

I took my bike home, cut the bonded connector apart, and Glendale Buell actually was able to sell me a new VR and the individual 77-connector parts so I fixed it myself. They get my business now, it's a shame I go 45 miles away to a responsive dealer when my incompetent purchasing dealer is less than 10.

I like BC Steve's idea too. When my warranty's up I'm going right back in there and do a full connector substitution. What the heck are split-bolts and split-nuts you guys are talking about?

I was at Glendale Buell Monday getting warrantied replacements of my fuel pump and fan. Had a lot of time to look at bikes. Noticed the '08's S/R/XT had different routing for the VR wiring. Went to their parts books, no 77-connector involved it looked like. Of course the charging systems are different but I wonder how many '08's have had or will have system failures.
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Rays
Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2008 - 07:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Don, I agree with the other guys about your excellent photo.

It looks like the tang on the RH socket is quite different to the LH one and would make a great addition to the Google doc - would you mind if I used your photo to update the doc?

Like Xbimmer I retained the original connector because I still had a lot of warranty time left so if I did strike a genuine regulator failure I would have half a chance of a warranty claim (I'm sure there would be zero chance of the connector was cut off).

Now I am out of warranty I will be looking to update this connection to something a little more rugged - along the lines of what Steve has suggested.

(Message edited by Rays on April 23, 2008)
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Stevem123
Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2008 - 09:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Hey Xbimmer,

Here is a link to the copper split nuts I spoke of. They are available at most electrical/hardware stores.

The link is long so you may need to copy/paste into your browser.

BC Steve


http://ebusiness.ilsco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servl et/CategoryDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalog Id=1&categoryId=1056
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Stevem123
Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2008 - 09:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

By the way, I know the split-bolts thing probably looks monstrous to some of you but they will carry way more current than the wires they are clamping together and thus will serve the purpose of eliminating the problem altogether. I don't really care much for their bulkiness but they do work very well. Since they are hidden behind the front pully cover I don't care how they look as long as I have the peace of mind that they will never fail on me in the middle of nowhere.

Just thought I would put that out there before I get flamed! LOL!

BC Steve
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Xbimmer
Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2008 - 11:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

By the way, I know the split-bolts thing probably looks monstrous to some of you...

Wow, they sure do. How did you fit them in there? I had to massage the stock stuff to get it to fit.

I'll pull the cover off again this w/e but I'm wondering what the 77-connector wire size is. I'm thinking about an SAE-type connector myself, if I can find one with big enough gauge leads.
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Tipsymcstagger
Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2008 - 11:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Has this been an issue on the '08 yet?

I wonder if the change in the '08 charging system has mitigated this problem?

Tipsy
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Stevem123
Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 10:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Hey Xbimmer,

The split-bolts I used were quite small as compared to the pics on the link I posted.
Once properly insulated, they really aren't any larger than the original connector. The wires are huge and something like 8 or 10 guage and also pretty stiff so this was the solution I could come up with and still be able to take them apart later without having to cut them again.

I agree that the space given in front of the front sprocket is very tight but they will fit.

BC Steve
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Debueller
Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 11:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

WOW......great job, Stevem123, trouble shooting this one.....on line even.

I'm impressed.

It's no wonder I come here for most everything I need to know about my Buell!!
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Doncasto
Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 11:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

With apologies in advance for the image intensive post, and resulting load times . . .I have done a photo explanation of my fix for the "77 Connector" problem.

There are the supplies I purchased for the task. I was not able to find the "heavy splicing tape" or "adhesive backed heat shrink" . . .and found that heat shrink tubes would not fit over the split nuts. I did find some "heat shrink tape" that looked promising, but it was very spendy - so I opted for another approach. The silicone tape is supposed to seal out moisture. I had a moments pause about its stated effective temperature window, but then figured it was close enough for a try.


Supplies


These were the smallest split bolts I could find, and they were just about right for the size of wire I was bolting.

Split bolts

The first step was to remove the original connectors and seals. I made an effort to only clip off the bare minimum of wire out of concern that I might come up short when I was splicing. I cut the wires directly behind the crimped on male/female connectors. I did take the sage advice of our more "sparky" experienced contributors, and only did one wire set at a time, taking each to the point where it was tight in the split nut and wrapped in the silicone tape. I also disconnected the battery before starting. This photo shows one wire with the split bolt and silicone wrap attached and the other wire with the insulation stripped back and ready for bolting.

Bolted splice and wires stripped

This photo shows the split bolt attached to the second wire.


Strip bolt wrap


Here they are both wrapped. I then coated each splice with a liberal coat of "Liquid Insulation." I made sure to brush this stuff up past the edges of the wrappings. As per the instructions, I applied the recommended two coats. There is a 10 minute wait between coats and I found that half an hour gave better results. After both coats were applied, I let the work sit for the recommended four hours.


Both splices wrapped

The final steps were to wrap each splice individually in electrical tape and then wrap them together hoping they would not chafe and wear against each other. There were now three layers of insulation and/or moisture sealant, and I am hoping that none of the experts are going to goon me for inadvertent use of incompatible materials or massive overkill.



Final Wrap


The completed splice was somewhat bulkier than the original connector set. I was able to carefully position everything back after several attempts and profuse use of vulgar "power words." I zip tied everything back in place behind the cover bracket. The key was to tuck all the single leads in behind the curved shield around the upper right cover attachment hole.

I hope this helps. I would appreciate any comments and suggestions, especially if my ineptitude has caused me to violate any electrical SOP's.

Don Casto
Boulder, Colorado
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Electraglider_1997
Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 12:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Learn something new here every day.
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Stevem123
Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 01:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Very good Don! Nice photos and look like the same size split bolts I used but I didn't use the liquid stuff. Those will be trouble free connections that will probably outlast the bike!

BC Steve
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Ry329
Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 02:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Why not just solder wires & crimp them in a butt connector & tape up ???
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Sleez
Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 02:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

if this is an issue on mine, they will get soldered together and covered with adhesive lined heatshrink just like Sekalilgai stated. those split nuts add nothing to the equation other than simplicity. and are still susceptible to coming loose! anyone with any soldering skill will get a better connection without worrying about a "cold" joint. if that is an issue, you shouldn't be soldering anyway!
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Stevem123
Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 04:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Soldering is fine for those that actually know how to, but what if you need to disconnect the wires to replace the voltage regulator? Now you have to cut them again and the wiring harness gets shorter each time you have to do that. Probably not an issue for you guys that like to solder-splice but I like the KISS principal. (Keep it simple sir!)

As for you thinking it will come loose; I work in an environment where we use these things all the time and vibrations are terrible in the equipment where they are installed. It's so bad that I have to zip-tie relays to their sockets or they jump out! Never seen a split-bolt come loose in the last 5 years.......

Not flaming anyone here so whatever floats your boat.

BC Steve
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Sleez
Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 04:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

no prob steve,

i've no experience with those split bolts other than stationary locations, is why i questioned them. i have been soldering for 23 years, so i guess it just seems easy. i wouldn't re-cut a soldered connection either, just desolder it. either using wick or a solder sucker. whatever works and you are comfortable with.....do!!!

all good stuff!!
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911_racer
Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 04:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

wow, you guys rock. Hey Steve where did you get those split bolts? I live in SLV also(met you once in front of your house). Does Ernies in Felton have'm? I could use a hand full of them for my ATK605 project.
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