| Author | Message | ||
     Mark_weiss |
I'm hesitant to press anything in or out of an unheated aluminum part. I have a lot of BMW motorcycle experience and driving wheel bearings in or out four or five times generally ruined the hub. While there are several companies that make products to 'resize' the bearing bore, why bother when the damage is so easily prevented? Mark in Arizona | ||
| Blake |
Ever try spraying deep cold onto the bearing to get it to shrink? | ||
| Jackbequick |
There is another thread on rear wheel bearings going on over here: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/384 2/357180.html?1209683437 There was some discussion of using LocTite Bearing and Seal Retainer to keep a loose bearing in (not a bad idea) and that lead to the comment that it "..might be tough to remove that bearing if/when required..." So I shared some experiences and said: Here are some ways to do it that I've had to use in the past. 1 - Pry the seal off, usually a scribe or awl will work for that. 2 - Lift the stamped steel ball spacer, breaking the spot welds or rivets loose. Then grab it with needle nosed pliers and remove it. 3 - The lower spacer will still be in place below the balls. Tap it down with a small punch (1/8" or so) it will drive the lower seal out and the spacer ring will follow. Crowd the balls and pry up the spacer and remove it with needle nose pliers. Or push it down into the wheel hub with the punch. 4 - As this progresses, the balls can be crowded together and you may be able to pull the lower spacer out. All this can be accomplished without any damage to the wheel. The bearing of course, is history if it was not already so at the start. 5 - Crowd all the balls together on one side and you will be able to move the inner race away from the balls to the open area. Some force may be required, but they got them in this way, so you can get them out. Balls may start falling out at this point, if not tap the center most one down or try to pry it up. 6 - With one ball out they should all fall out and the inner race can be removed leaving the outer race in place. Heating the hub should lessen the grip on the outer race and let you pull it with normal bearing pulling techniques. If that fails, if you can get someone to run a bead a TIG welding along the race for about 1/3rd or 1/2 of the diameter, the race will fall out when the weld has cooled. The weld will increase the amount of shrinkage on the race as it goes from hot to cool and the race will be several thousandths of an inch smaller than it was before it was welded. A very good arc (SMAW) welder, using a small rod (1/16" or 3/32" or so), protective pastes to protect the wheel from spatter, and all his skill and cunning, may be able to do the welding if a TIG welder is not to be had. I have also used a Dremel tool to cut an inner race into two or three pieces to remove it and the seals and balls or rollers. If you have to defeat LocTite it usually takes a heat of 700F to 800F or so. Maybe more for some products, look for the specs for the product if in doubt. But the temps will not normally be enough to damage an aluminum wheel. But if you are using a heat source that is hotter than 1100F (a propane or acetylene torch for example) you are in danger of the flame causing the aluminum wheel to melt (aluminum has a 1220F +/- melting point) if you apply the flame directly to the wheel and to one spot for too long. A small propane mini-torch is a good choice for apply heat directly to the race. You can find those many hardware/tool stores. If in doubt, ask the local crack smokers where they are getting theirs and be prepared for some strange looks when you go there to buy one. A heat gun is the best way to do the heating, those will usually attain heats of up around 800F. For the Metrically inclined, subtract 32 from the Fahrenheit temperatures, then multiply by 5 and divide by 9 to convert to Centigrade. Jack | ||
| Panhead_dan |
I have been following this thread somewhat knowing my turn may be coming up. My bike is beginning to make funny noises either from the rear wheel bearing or the rear brake. Of course, the warrantee is up. Could one of you kind folks please post a brand and number for a superior replacement set? It may be in this thread already, I seem to remember the topic touched upon but jeez this thread has grown l o n g and my online time has grown short. Thanks, Dan | ||
| Johnboy777 |
Hey Dan, According to our local Applied store here, the SKF brand, regardless of country of origin, are the best. They also said that Koyos were good as well. LINK SKF: http://www.applied.com/apps/commerce/catalog/catal og.do?e=10&s=6366801 LINK KOYO: http://www.applied.com/apps/commerce/catalog/catal og.do?e=10&s=4021061  | ||
| Bienhoabob |
First of, I have to thank all of those who posted to this thread. I posted my last mileage and mpg to the Uly mileage thread and was very disappointed that I only got 47.xx mpg. I have an '06 and usually get in the low 50's. I have new plugs, TPS reset, wasn't hot roding, not riding into a head wind. Nothing made any sense. Today was another rainy day in the Midwest and I thought that I better check the rear bearings, mostly out of boredom. The bearings were not emitting that rusty ooze, I do not power wash, but this thread lead me to remove the rear wheel and check. Well, to my surprise I couldn't get the bearings to turn at all. Nada, zip. No rust either like maximum pic.'s. I took the wheel to my local HD/Buell shop. Their conclusion was that the bearings seized due to excess heat. Probably one bad bearing lead to another to a near total seizure. Anyway the shop replaced the bearings under warranty. They said that the '06 bearings are superseded by another new set of bearings. The original bearings cost $20 a set, the new superseded ones are $44. Twice as good, hopefully yes. Again thanks for the posting, I probably would have rode the bike until the wheel seized up in the middle of nowhere. Bob | ||
| Teeps |
Bienhoabob, Did the dealer remove the seals so you could see the bearings and lubricant? Did they find any water in the hub? | ||
| Jackbequick |
I'd ask them to give me the replaced bearings if I could. I'd just pop the seals off and inspect them out of curiosity. You can remove the seals with the point of an knife or a machinist's scribe. The water in the hub issue may relate to the heating and cooling cycles pulling a little moisture in around the axle. The axle is a sliding fit so it would be possible for moisture to be pulled in there. I wonder if putting silica gel packets or something like that in the hub would be a good idea? The little "do not eat" things don't weigh much so I doubt they would affect balance. Jack | ||
| Bienhoabob |
I pulled the seals before I went to the dealer. I found no rust, no water. Only one side now that I think about it. Maybe the other side was gummed up. | ||
| Jlnance |
They said that the '06 bearings are superseded by another new set of bearings. Whoaaa, that is the first I've heard of that. Can someone confirm a part number change on the bearings? I'd like to figure out the details on what changed and when. | ||
| Dick_stilton |
Just had a great idea for anyone on here thinking of buying a Uly. Give your dealer a link to this forum and say Ill take a bike but look at all the faults identified on the forum and replace/reset/change before I collect the bike. I wonder what kind of response you would get in the US? Probably 'Yes sir' with a smile. Here in Switzerland they would look at you in that 'Swiss Way' (The way they do with all foreigners) and then ignore you. Wish to god I lived in the US. In my experience the word 'service' is a dirty word everywhere else. | ||
| Crusty |
Dick, I hate to burst your balloon, but when I was going to buy an XT last week, the dealership treated me exactly as you describe the Swiss. I didn't buy the bike. Today, if the rain lets up, I'm going to a dealership 60 miles away to begin negotiations. | ||
| Teeps |
Bienhoabob Posted on Friday, May 02, 2008 - 10:01 pm: I pulled the seals before I went to the dealer. I found no rust, no water. Only one side now that I think about it. Maybe the other side was gummed up. I'll assume that "pulled the seals" means that one seal from each side of the wheel was removed... If so and the grease was not contaminated, I doubt that either of the bearings were seized. Too bad you couldn't take the original bearings, I'd like to see what they looked like after they were cleaned. | ||
| Skyclad |
 AGAIN!! Second set of bearing failed on me this weekend. Just a bit over 6000 miles and two sets of bearings gone. I will be taking it in for warranty replacement again, but most likely, I will be swapping them out pretty much as soon as I get the bike back, unless I can convince the dealer to get double sealed bearing to begin with this time. I am also going to ask that they take a close look at the wheel to be sure the bearing is setting properly. Even for a Uly, two sets in 6000 miles is a bit ridiculous. I do ride it hard, but come on!!! | ||
| Skyclad |
oh BTW, this is on an 08 model...if there are improved bearing, obviously I ain't got 'em | ||
| Jlnance |
Skyclad - Sorry to hear about your bearings. Given you're going to replace the bearings with your own (which I think is a good idea) I would not let the dealer press in HD bearings. The hubs can only take so many bearing swaps, then they are bad. Just take a new set of bearings with you to the dealer, I don't suspect they will have a problem with using yours instead of the HD bearings. I assume you've seen links to the Koyo bearings in the applied catalog that have been posted. If not, let me know and I'll dig up a link for you. Jim | ||
| Skyclad |
Yeah, I am going to be taking that information in with me. | ||
| Jackbequick |
If you can get the failed bearings and remove the seals and wash the grease out, it would be interesting to see if they are galled, heat discolored, may have had water contaminated grease, or whatever. Most of the early failures in the threads here seemed to have been associated with water getting into the bearings. Jack | ||
| Skyclad |
I really doubt that I will get the failed bearings. The shop sent the last set back to Buell for analysis and failure tracking purposes. That is also the reason that I still kind of hesitate to change to the aftermarket bearings. I want Buell to fix this problem, and switching to different bearings is not going to help with this. Then again, if I have them install bearings with better seals, and have no further problems with the bearings, that would be good info as well. Update: I spoke briefly with Buell CS. It seems that they have the bearing problems documented with the 06 and 07's. Mine was the first 08 that they have record of. they gave me a case number and asked that I have the dealership call the factory tech folks for troubleshooting. this all sounds good...kinda. I really don't want ot be without my Uly for any great length of time. (Message edited by skyclad on May 05, 2008) | ||
| Jwnsc |
>Mine was the first 08 that they have record of. Rekrab reported earlier that his rear bearing went out on his '08 Uly at 14K. I guess whoever replaced it must not have sent it to Buell. | ||
| Skyclad |
One also must take into consideration that I was talking with CS. I am sure there are plenty of limitations on what they are allowed to reveal to a caller. | ||
| Court |
Several thoughts. It is a concern that some issues which may warrant closer attention some time never get reported. Not entirely a bad idea to call and ask, even if relatively minor, if just to get it on the Pareto. It's not so much a case of what they "can" say it's a case of what is prudent. You would be surprise how many things, spoken casually, can come back to haunt folks. In addition be mindful that you were once one of those flashing lights waiting to have your call picked up. There is no reason, after talking to them, that your dealer should not have the bearing s the next day. Keep us posted. Easy fix. | ||
| Iugradmark |
Court, I think a reasonable starting point would be to have this added to routine service inspections. For those of us that don't have stands, heat guns, bearing pulleys, etc. or that just don't want to do our own service, it would be nice to know this is inspected the right way at each dealer performed service. | ||
| Jlnance |
I think a reasonable starting point... It would create a tremendous amount of good will for Buell it issue a statement about the bearing problems, detailing what they do and don't know. | ||
| Jwnsc |
Well, when I talked to Buell CS Rep, Phillip, last month, it was "Bearing problem? What bearing problem? We haven't received enough warranty claims to make us think anything is wrong." Add to that the '08s have the same size Taiwanese NTN wheel bearings as the '06s and '07s, and that we've had three low-mileage '08 failures that we know of, seems to indicate that it's business as usual. Anybody with an XT check to see if they have the Taiwanese NTNs.? | ||
| Skyclad |
Court, What you were saying about thing coming back to haunt a company is what I was getting at with the restrictions that CS has in what they are allowed to discuss. They have no way of knowing if I am from other company, or a lawyer. With today's litigation happy society, it is almost surprising that they even hinted that they might have had reports on the 06 and 07 bearing issues. I am not asking for the easy fix. That did not work last time. I am giving the shop the time to take a good look at the bike and see if they can determine what is going on. That is also the reason that I contacted CS. I wanted to be sure the factory had a chance to get involved with the troubleshooting, in hopes that lessons they learn from my bike might help to solve the problem along the entire line. | ||
| Jlnance |
We haven't received enough warranty claims to make us think anything is wrong. I wonder what that threshold is? Seriously, I'm curious as an engineer. Is there an actual number? From things posted it the past, I think it may be tracked as warranty cost/bike. | ||
| Jwnsc |
>I wonder what that threshold is? I guess it depends on what kind of company you are dealing with. Some companies are quick to make changes without being forced to do so by the NHTSA or product liability suits. Others need some nudging. Since there is a fiduciary duty to the shareholders, it probably boils down to a cost/benefit analysis. In some situations, one well-publicized incident can be enough if it's thought the bottom line will suffer by not doing anything. So far as we know (knock on wood) no one has been seriously injured and I've only heard of one guy who passed on the Uly and bought another bike because of the bearing talk. | ||
| Jlnance |
I guess it depends on what kind of company you are dealing with. It's the kind of product too. A motorcycle is a recreational vehicle, it doesn't need to be as reliable as an ambulance or a firetruck. It's conceivable that the bearing issue could be a safety problem, but no more so than a nail in the tire. It's mostly a convenience issue, where I want to use the bike to have fun and it's not available. I'm sure Buell has some sort of reliability target for the bike. I'm sure a certain number of failures are anticipated as normal. I'm curious as to what that number is, just intellectually, and also because I wonder how it matches up with our expectations as owners. With respect to the bearing issue in particular, I feel that they are not reliable enough. I don't know if Buell disagrees, they don't know about the failures, or they don't know how to fix the failures. One thing I worry about is that they may base their reliability metrics on warranty costs. Bearings are cheap and it doesn't take long to replace them. If the reliability is measured by warranty cost, a LOT of bearings would have to fail before they showed up on the radar. The thing is, owners don't care about warranty costs, they care about the amount of downtime the bike experiences. That may be contributing to the problem. | ||
| Dano_12s |
Mar.'08 XT Does have the Taiwan NTN bearings.When you remove the wheel the bearings may feel like they are binding,take a piece of all thread,washers,nuts to pre-load bearing+spacer then check for binding.I had 16k on my '06 w/no problems. |
