| Author | Message | ||
     Xbimmer |
In order to avoid damaging the wheel hub, you'll want to use a proper bearing puller.What I'd recommend in lieu of such an aggressive replacement regimen would be diligence, check your bearings every time you change the tires. I agree completely. Is the slide hammer HF puller precise enough? A slide hammer may not be the best means to remove the wheel bearings. You want something that will help assure a nice even/straight and steady pull. It would probably be a good idea to spray penetrant between bearing race and hub too. Just be sure to clean it well before installing the new bearings. What does the service manual say? Lists some H-D puller tool that uses a threaded rod to pull them out placing the pulling load reasonably evenly around the hub. Impacts from a slide hammer to yank a steel-raced bearing from an aluminum hub would seem to me to be abuse of the wheel. Something has to give with a hammer and I'd think that would be the softer metal. The OSM procedure with the official tool looks to be a good way to carefully remove and install the bearing assembly with the minimum damage to the wheel OR the apparently (possibly?) suspect bearing spacer. I've used slides to pull out softer metals from steel, and steel outer races from steel frames in my Hondas and Beemers, but when I do my Buell wheels I'll be using a more relaxed form of coercion. | ||
| Jphish |
I suppose the question is ultimately: how many rear bearing failures have been experienced in relationship to Uly's on the road ? (Assume the ones still sitting in dealerships havent failed yet) A data based analysis would tell the story, in terms of statistical probability. Many of us are all puckered up (me included) anticipating the moment of catastrophe of the Ulysses Achilles heel - in a stupendously inconvenient place. (excuse the mixed mythological metaphor) I dont want to minimize the seriousness of the issue - particularly since I'm heading for the arctic circle in June. (not the hamburger joint - the one up by Inuvic) So: is there any way to get the total #s of Uly's sold vs. the # of reported Buell warranty repaired units from the mother ship in Wisconsin? Then factor in those who have bypassed the dealer and fixed 'em themselves. May provide some interesting insights and info. I could probably build a new Uly outa all the spare parts I haul around. (American sport bikes stock just jumped 10% with my last order) If I have to now carry a bearing puller apparatus...Yikes! I'll need a trailer too. May as well take the thumper - I thrash that KLR...and it keeps on ticking. I may have to hope for my riding buddy's 1200GS final drive to fail first... so I don't have to listen to all the virtues of the BMW. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Maybe instead of logo'd hydration packs and neck warmers, Buell might consider gift certificates for parts ( bearings?? )and accessories. | ||
| Johnboy777 |
"I suppose the question is ultimately: how many rear bearing failures have been experienced in relationship to Uly's on the road ?" I just got my bike serviced (1,000 mi.) by a very Buell friendly dealer in New Castle PA last week, where 7 of the 22 employees ride Buells (and most of those ride 'em to work). The head Buell tech, Rob, said, and I quote, " about half of the rear tire changes I do on Uly's require new rear wheel bearings with the tire change" There you have it. John | ||
| Stevenknapp |
Just curious, will H-D sell it's service tools to mortals? | ||
| Jwnsc |
Does anyone know if anything related to wheel bearings changed on the XT model? When I asked Buell last month about wheel bearing failure rates I was told Buell did not have enough official (warranty) reports of wheel bearing failure to consider it out of line with industry standards. One way to get a rough count independent of the Buell Warranty reporting protocol would be for every Uly owner who had bad wheel bearings, whether fixed by the dealer or not, to report it to the NHTSA at 1-888-327-4236. | ||
| Jphish |
Hey Johnboy - Well...those are some pretty compelling numbers ! I think Jwnsc had a good idea regarding NHTSA. I'm surprised & disappointed Buell hasent stepped up, acknowledged the problem, & found a fix. I've only got 500 mi on my 08 - but I keep "hearing things" - like chirping. But then realized - hey..wait! - Im not even riding the bike, I'm just washing it - (It was just the birds complaining of the delayed arrival of spring here in the NW) Think I need wheelbearing anxiety meds! If your dealers anecdotal experience is truly indicative of the failure rate...Houston.., we got a problem. Where are the Buell insiders on this? I'm just a customer. 'Chow', john | ||
| Johnboy777 |
Hey John, I read, and another poster reiterated it here, somewhere, that the Uly, by way of its design (e'g., higher ride height), places addition stresses on the rear bearings, compared to other XB's. I've spent $64 on new SKF bearings; at the next tire change, regardless of the OE's condition, they're going in... for me at least, end of story. Manufacturers have a vested interest NOT to hear the beating drums of the natives. I am sure they have bigger fires to put out in other areas, on other bikes, as any on-going motorcycle manufacturing operation does. The bike's a work in progress - they got it 95% right, IMHO. But that said, a better f*cking stock fuel map would be f*cking nice!  John H. | ||
| Jphish |
Yeah - Only got 500mi on the Uly - I'd almost like to do a preemptive strike and change to SKF or Koyo. But concerned if / when anything does happen they'll refuse to honor warranty due to non stock parts. Got OEM spares in my topcase for the long trips, but no bearing puller. Guess I'll have to find the right size rock and stick - kinda like the cavemen had to use on their Uly's?! You're right though - they got it 95% right, but a few improvements, in face of demonstrated problems, would be nice. Take care John, John (getting redundant here) | ||
| Stevenknapp |
FWIW, I pulled my rear wheel awaiting a tire change. The bearings look just like this: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/351536.jpg  | ||
| Stevenknapp |
Anyone seen this tool? It's intended to be a factory took "knock off". Looks like it works just like the factory tool. http://www.denniskirk.com/jsp/product_catalog/Product.jsp?skuId=&store=&catId=&productId=pH28037&leafCatId=&mmyId= $235 And this guy sells a similar version: http://www.georges-garage.com/chassis_tools.htm $145+S/H (Message edited by stevenknapp on April 22, 2008) | ||
| Stevenknapp |
A local shop (DD customs) was listed as a Jims dealer. I called, he didn't have the tool in stock but said he had one in his shop. I offered to buy it, but he insisted I just borrow it. Great guy. The puller worked great. No issues on the rear and the front looks like it would be OK. The George's is supposed to be a copy of Jims but someone mentioned George's has issues with hitting the brake rotor on Blasts, I can't see that happening w/ Jims. The bearing was holding back ~2TBS of water. All was within the wheel. And it was water, not brake parts cleaner or something. I've been known to wash my wheels when they are off the bike, I wonder if that's part of the issue. Oh, the nasty bearing was not just crunchy, it was "loose". | ||
| Hughlysses |
Steven, I found similar water when I pulled my rear bearings a few weeks ago. I've never washed my wheels off the bike. I'm about convinced the water's getting put in there before the bikes are assembled. I don't see how you could "drive" water into the hub of the wheel like that, short of submerging it. | ||
| Stevenknapp |
When you installed the bearing, was one side slightly proud of the wheel? The spacer is in there tight, so the bearings won't go in further. But the side I put in 2nd isn't flush like the first side. | ||
| Xbimmer |
When you installed the bearing, was one side slightly proud of the wheel? The spacer is in there tight, so the bearings won't go in further. But the side I put in 2nd isn't flush like the first side. That's the way mine are, front and rear, stock. One other thing I've questioned before, when the wheels are removed the front spacer is loose between the bearings. The rear is so snug that turning one inner race spins the other inner race. | ||
| Stevenknapp |
Just curious, which side is proud of the wheel? The service manual says to install the brake-disc side first, so it would be flush. That small gap on the pulley side had water/rust in mine and the pulley side bearing failed. I (whoops) did it backwards putting them back in, pulley side flush...I wonder if the other bearing fails next. I'm not worrying about the slight mis-alignment...I'm not worrying... | ||
| Jackbequick |
If those are failing regularly and water ingress seems to be the issue, something that might be worth trying is to fill the normally unfilled air space around the outside of the spacer with grease. If you can do that, there would be no place for water to accumulate. Since you have a sealed bearing the extra grease won't contribute to lubrication but it might help with weather proofing. If the grease in the hub warms and expands it will only grow a small amount, I'd think that the egress route would be around the axle itself since that is the only slip fit part there. If a small amount of grease appeared where the axle exits the inner race, I'd wipe that up and keep an eye on it for a while. If there was not a steady egress of grease under heating a cooling and longer use, you might be better off. The newer bikes that use sealed bearings kind of make me nervous in a way. I'm more used to being able to see and/or feel and also adjust the end play on the bearings. Also the seals on those bearings are generally less robust than separately fitted/easily replaced seals and, of course, there is no way to easily inspect, clean, or re-lube the bearings. I wonder if the benefits of the sealed bearings is not to someone other than the end user. Like it was easier or cheaper to manufacture or something. Jack | ||
| Stevem123 |
Wow this thread just keeps going and going...sorta like the energizer bunny... Anyway I'll put in my observations and offer the following. My early 06 Uly has had several new tires and each time I have checked the bearings for roughness and found none. However I do have the same tightness of the rear bearings as opposed to the normal feeling front ones. Now that I have read about the rear bearings not being seated fully on one side it makes total sense to me as to why the bearings feel tight. The only explanation can be that the spacer between the bearings is too long and prevents both bearings from seating fully. I havent had to change my bearings yet but this seems like it should be addressed to prevent further problems. I reckon I will address the problem when the time comes to replace the bearings and my thoughts are to shorten the spacer just enough to allow both bearings to seat fully into the hub of the wheel. I'll probably also look at the wheel alignment side-to-side and make sure this doesn't cause other problems. I won't be doing this anytime soon though unless my current bearings fail so maybe someone with more time than I have can do the measurements and figure it out. BC Steve | ||
| Jflaig |
prepping for a couple of weeks long distance rides, I checked the wheels and wiped off the exposed grease. Found rust looking grease on brake side bearing, called dealer for inspection for possible warranty work. Told me that they have no openings, if work is needed, until after 9 May. By that time, I'll be in the middle of my 2nd trip, and heading South. Called the dealer near far point and told to just bring it in and they'd get to work on it. I am carrying my spares just in case I have to provide them. (thanks Al) Any words of encouragement? Should I pull the wheel and that bearing seal and repack to assist in longevity until I get it to a dealer? | ||
| Hughlysses |
Should I pull the wheel and that bearing seal and repack to assist in longevity until I get it to a dealer? Man, how many miles are you considering riding it that way? If you see actual rust in the grease, I'd bet the bearing is already toast. Corrosion is going to ruin the surface finish on the balls and races and they will quickly deteriorate after that. My advice would be change the bearing yourself if you have to ride it. If you REALLY want to wait on the dealer and are determined to ride on that bearing, I'd pop the seal, flush the bearing out with brake cleaner, and repack it properly with fresh grease. The real downside of the bearing going on a long trip is that it may destroy the spacer (at a minimum) as well as the axle and swing arm (if things really go bad) before you catch it. (Message edited by hughlysses on April 24, 2008) | ||
| Hughlysses |
If those are failing regularly and water ingress seems to be the issue, something that might be worth trying is to fill the normally unfilled air space around the outside of the spacer with grease. If you can do that, there would be no place for water to accumulate. Since you have a sealed bearing the extra grease won't contribute to lubrication but it might help with weather proofing. If the grease in the hub warms and expands it will only grow a small amount, I'd think that the egress route would be around the axle itself since that is the only slip fit part there. If a small amount of grease appeared where the axle exits the inner race, I'd wipe that up and keep an eye on it for a while. If there was not a steady egress of grease under heating a cooling and longer use, you might be better off. Steve- that seems like a good idea, but that hub would hold a LOT of grease- my guestimate would be the full contents of 1 pound can of grease. It's a big cavity. That much grease just might make a bit of a mess if expanded. I did install my new bearings with a coat of grease on the exterior and anti-seize on the axle. HOPEFULLY that makes the wheel hub fairly water-tight. | ||
| Stevenknapp |
Wow this thread just keeps going and going...sorta like the energizer bunny... Sorry bout that, I just started working on mine and found a few things that I had not found looking in the earlier threads. called dealer for inspection for possible warranty work. Told me that they have no openings, if work is needed, until after 9 May. Two thoughts, call back and ask if you drop the wheel off (can you pull the wheel yourself?) can the change them for you? Mine said if I was willing to wait a bit they could fit it in. Pulling the wheel takes more time than the bearing job. Or find an independent shop. I called Jims who makes one of the bearing pullers, they gave me a few shops, I called the closest one. The guy was great. I ended up borrowing his tools and doing it myself, but I'm sure he would have helped out if needed. I wouldn't just repack it. | ||
| Jlnance |
Told me that they have no openings Is their another dealer around? I had mine mount a tire and press in new bearings and they said I didn't even need an appointment, just bring the wheel in. Took less than an hour. | ||
| Jflaig |
I offered the wheel only or the whole thing. The local dealer wants the whole bike for any possibility of warranty. I'm not to sure about having to wait for that amount of time. Will check on a local shop to do the work before I go. 1st trip is @ 1k slab total. The 2nd is even longer. I am just over 20k miles and just started the 3rd rear. Checked and packed the rears when I had the tire off at 18.5K for the tire change. It looked ok at that point, or so I thought. This is why I come to the experienced. Thanks, Jeff | ||
| Jflaig |
Maybe when they look at it, and agree, I can bring back just the wheel. I'll see when I get there later today. No other real Buell dealers around. It seems they carry them, but I have't heard any reports of their quality of work. | ||
| Jackbequick |
Hugh, You're close to right about the quantity of grease needed, it is probably more like 6 to 8 ounces. I do it on my Dyna which is about 1.5" bore about 4.5" long. But I leave 95 percent of the grease there each time I service the bearings. For the most part the tube spacer, step spacer, and the shims that set the end play all stay right where they are and surrounded by grease (a good marine grade synbthetic, not runny at all). I pop the seals, lift the bearings out, groom the grease to get rid of anything that looks dirty or used, and then top it back up when I'm done. I also put grease on top of the bearing under the seal. I clean up my mess and see small amounts of leakage when I clean the bike but nothing major at all. How much does grease expand when heated up? Not much I'm thinking. I don't remove and replace all the grease unless I have to pull races or something. I'm not here to say that what I suggest is a better way but I think it sounds like the seals on those bearings or the bearings are just not up to the service they are seeing. If I wanted to try something, I'd fill the bore. I worked on a couple of bikes and machines over the years where similar problems gave rise to doing things like filling the hubs. Another time, on a machine, I found that removing the seals from the inner sides of the bearing and filling the hub with grease not only halted all the problems with water ingression, but giving the grease access to the back side of the bearings provided a degree of lubrication that made the bearings last much, much, longer. Like years instead of months. Jack | ||
| Jackbequick |
Steve, Proceed carefully as far as shortening the spacer. If the Bearings are seated as per the manual, up against the spacer tube, and any and all other external spacers are in place, what you are seeing may be correct. On many or maybe most bikes the inner tube and other spaces all combine to put the spacers and inner bearing races all under a compression load that keeps them from turning when everything is mounted and tightened to specs. And then the outer races turn with the wheels. So the tube length is part of the equation for filling a specified distance between the swing arms. I don't see where there is an end play adjustment with the sealed bearings which sort of makes me wonder where those kinds of stresses go or accumulate and how they are relieved. On the models that don't use sealed bearings, you set a cold end play (.002-.006" for example) by using shims. Adding shims has the effect of moving the bearing away from the race so that it has room to move back, without stress, when warmed up. That play can be felt and measured as a side to side movement with everything mounted and torqued to specs. As I remember my M2, and as the Uly is described, there is no such adjustment so I guess the bearing locations are just where they are and the bearings just handle whatever changes in side loads that occur. Jack | ||
| Hughlysses |
Jack, I think the HD's you're used to dealing with use tapered roller bearings. A tapered roller fits like a cone (the inner race and rollers) within a larger cone (the outer race). A tapered roller can therefore be adjusted with clearance or preload depending on what the designer deems appropriate. The Buells use ball bearings which basically have no adjustment for play. Ideally when everything is installed properly, the inner race, balls, and outer race are perfectly aligned and there is no preload on the bearing. It's been speculated here that the spacer actually pushes out against the inner races, causing the bearings to be "out of alignment" until the wheel is installed and the axle is torqued to spec, which compresses the aluminum spacer just enough to properly align the bearings. One theory on the failed bearings is that some axles get over-torqued, crushing the spacer and therefore mis-aligning the bearings by pushing the inner races towards each other. I'd be cautious if trimming that spacer to allow both bearings to fully seat. The Uly swing arm has a built-in boss on the brake side that the inner race of the wheel bearing rests against when the wheel is installed. On the other side, there is a shoulder on the axle that the inner race of the bearing on that side rests against. There is no contact between the right side bearing race and the swingarm. The axle is threaded into the left side of the swing arm and clamped into the right side of the swingarm. The wheel is not "clamped" between two sides of the swingarm as it is on most bikes. It's an interesting arrangement. Your idea of removing the inner seals from the bearings and packing the hub with grease is really interesting. It'd be tricky because you'd have to press in one bearing, pack the grease in there, install the sleeve, and then press in the other bearing. If you wind up with too much grease inside it'd probably just pop out the outer seals on the bearings eventually, but that wouldn't be catastrophic. It would be kind of hard to "adjust" the quantity of grease once it was put together though. Who's gonna be the first to try it? | ||
| Jflaig |
Took the Uly in for the bearing check and the mechanic agreed it wasn't right to see grease outside a sealed bearing. Took the wheel back this AM and they are replacing under warranty. Thanks for the encouragement. Badweb, the place to be when not on the road. | ||
| Jackbequick |
Hugh, thanks for the lesson on the Uly mounting and how the sealed bearings deal with the side loads. I can see all in my minds eye now. The smaller bearing area in a ball bearing, as opposed to a tapered roller, makes all the things that happen there a little more critical. And good for you on your dealer's response too, Jeff. I really like it when a dealer steps up and does the right thing. I've not had a new motorcycle with a warranty in a long, long time. Doing it yourself, figuring out good ways and better ways was always a traditional part of the process for me. But I'd use the warranty process and the dealer if I had a new bike. Jack |
