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Buell Motorcycle Forum » Big, Bad & Dirty (Buell XB12X Ulysses Adventure Board) » BB&D Archives » Archive Thru April 04, 2008 » 2008 Uly Price - Let's forget about "Out the door" « Previous Next »

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Tipsymcstagger
Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2008 - 09:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I posted this on ADVRider, but figured I'd repost here as well:

"Out the door" has too many variables. Some are paying sales tax at the dealer and others are paying at the DMV.

Talking strictly two numbers 1) purchase price for the bike alone and 2) dealer prep/freight; what have you guys paid?

Are 2008's going for less than MSRP now that they've been available for a while?

TIA.

Tipsy
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Chrisgrant
Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2008 - 10:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

$10,800 + 300 tax.
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Johnboy777
Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2008 - 12:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

When i bought my bike, the dealer did NOT charge me dealer prep/ freight or any of that other BS.

There was a formula around here, someplace, that allowed you to closely estimate dealer cost. IIRC, its 10% or so - but, maybe i'm wrong.

.
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Jammin_joules
Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2008 - 06:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

FWIW:

Freight, destination, dealer prep, set up, documentation fees - all that BS, they contribute to the profit, or loss, of a dealership. A dealer IS charged freight for each bike he gets shipped. And a service tech does spend time uncrating and setting up each bike. Realize too, the auto industry is different with hold backs and manufacturer incentives.

What ever the titles and descriptions, there are costs of doing business and expected profits for invested capital. Owning a Harley dealer only became a wealth generation proposition in the 90's. Taking on Buell became a way for many dealers to get more Harley's, since the Motor Company awarded more bikes to dealers who took on such programs. A few became enamored with the odd looking, fun to ride bikes, others have since dropped the line since floor space can be better occupied by higher margin big-twins. So in the long run, a Buell dealer is a rarer commodity than just five years ago.

Ever wonder why?

You want full service, you want full spare parts available on demand, you want low cost tires, factory trained service techs with a chest full of specialty tools and a senior tech who can work on a tube-frame Buell, Buell gear and accessories, how about a free pick up when your bike is down due to something you or an untrained shop did to your bike - then BS like dealer freight is going to be paid.

Like them or not, dealer principles are business people. They enter an enterprise with a business plan that includes employee benefits, training, equipment, local & state taxes, floor costs, costs of finance, utilities and an expected profit based on projected margins for a given volume of business. Start squeezing those margins - for a little while it becomes good competition to ween out the weak, make more efficient the wasteful. Prolong it, dealerships start dropping costly & unprofitable ventures.

Hey, make the best deal you can, no one expects you to leave money on the table. But everyone deserves to make a profit, earn a fair wage, scribe out a living in support of the hobby you enjoy as a customer. Hopefully they respect and serve you and equally, you pay the piper for the music they provide for your entertainment pleasure. Stop paying and the silence can be deafening.

~jammer
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Electraglider_1997
Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2008 - 06:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The minute you start worrying about the dealer's finances is the minute you get sucked into paying too much. Let the dealer be concerned for his own welfare and you the prospective customer worry about yourself because the dealer certainly isn't. When was the last time you heard of a dealer telling a customer that he was willing to go $500 cheaper than the customer just offered? I've never heard of that happening. I have heard a car dealer tell me with a straight face that the doc fee was state law and they didn't have a choice whether to collect it or not. I figured he was lying through his teeth so I told that shyster that he'd have to lower his price by that amount to cover that fee... he did.
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Tipsymcstagger
Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2008 - 07:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

FWIW:

If others are paying MSRP, I'd expect to pay MSRP.

If others are paying below MSRP, I will not pay MSRP.

It's no different than when a highly anticipated car is brought to market. When the Viper was new, everyone was paying tens of thousands above MSRP. If you thought you were going to walk into the dealership and demand to pay MSRP, you'd be in for a long negotiation. Once the hype had diminished and folks started to pay MSRP (or below) anyone who paid more was throwing money away.

I work hard for my money. I'm simply looking to see what the market bears.

Tipsy

(Message edited by tipsymcstagger on March 23, 2008)
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Johnboy777
Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2008 - 07:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

That's all very well and good, joules, very utopian-esque, but truth is, 'more often than not', Buells are an afterthought at many of the Harley stores...lucky us.

It doesn't matter what the dealer is, or is not charged. It all goes into (or comes out of) one pot in the end anyway...no? His exp. are his concern alone, not ours, as the consumer. The dealer looks out for his best interest, not us. Perhaps the dealer just wants to get one more bike off his floor plan ... then, you're in luck.

Trust me, no need to worry about the dealer - they don't worry 'bout us. No need to figure out freight/dealer prep, floor plan cost, or any dealer overhead exp ... its all BS. Drive the best deal you can at any dealer - then get it serviced where 'you' want, whether it’s the same dealer, or not.

In the end, it IS all 'BS', 'cept the out the door price where you live. If the dealer isn't making what they consider an acceptable profit - they WILL NOT sell the bike... period!

The customer needs only one key thing to make his, or her, decision - information. A buyer gets information by reading posts here and elsewhere, by shopping around and performing their own due diligence prior to the purchase. It takes work.

Forget the dealer. Take charge of the situation. Information is the only thing that can drive out ignorance, that I’m aware of.

Viva la consumer.

John
.
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Crusty
Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2008 - 07:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

When was the last time you heard of a dealer telling a customer that he was willing to go $500 cheaper than the customer just offered?

Last October, when we bought my wife's new XB12Ss.
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Bushido
Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2008 - 07:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I paid $11,000.00 for the bike (2008 model Uly) and they tacked on $250.00 for a documentation fee whatever that is. I'm guessing just a way to make more money because I can't remember what they told me at the time. I bought mine in late August of 07. I was OK with the deal then and I am still OK with it now. I love the bike and a few hundred dollars either way would not change that.
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Jammin_joules
Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2008 - 08:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sad that so many of you have had poor motorcycle dealership experiences that such cynicism rules your beliefs. I am a firm believer in that you reap what you sow also. Time was my Harley dealer in early 1980's was considered a trusted friend, we rode together, took trips when he could get out, borrowed tools, exchanged service tips.

I've never had that with a car dealership, but did with the local repair shop and then a couple hotrod shops. I never went into them with the attitude I've heard expressed here though. Of course they were hands-on owners, not car dealers who bought a Harley franchise. Hmmm.... ends justify the means maybe?

"I have heard a car dealer tell me with a straight face that the doc fee was state law and they didn't have a choice whether to collect it or not. "

Yup, we've all been lied to by less scrupulous employees. My 80 yr old mom just had a dentist quote her a root canal at $1,200 and with no insurance is now being billed $2,300. So all dentists are pricks too I guess. I know if I get told something I believe to be false, I ask to see the next level up boss and/or show me in writing. No response has my arse all they see leaving the door.

But in sales, you have to take the lean with the green times. Long lonely winter months in m/c show rooms selling nothing, making no commissions. Dealers may very well sell without their profits if it means keeping the lights on and meeting payroll. Are you so far removed from this in some corporate job that you think this is not a reality for many dealerships? It's called cash flow. Too poor for too many season, you drop the product line or close up shop and buy a Starbucks.

As a customer if you come in with a bonafide offer from a competitor, it'll be met by a good salesman. I think Crusty can attest to this. They all pay the same from the manufacturer. You come in with an attitude that the sales guy is an enemy, they won't volunteer a thing, and they probably don't want to spend time talking about the products that offer the least margins for their commissions.

I don't live in utopia Johnboy777, I share the earth with other people trying to eeck out a living and have a little fun along the way. I know when prices get competitive and profits start getting slim, services and benefits start getting cut. You want to buy a Buell in the environment of a Chevy dealership, then don't allow a business to cover the costs of perks for customers, better service, better trained techs with years of experience, best tools, first to schools.

I could be wrong, but I wouldn't like it.

~jammer
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M_singer
Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2008 - 08:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Jammer IMO the bar for service in the motorcycle industry in general is set very low. Not all dealers are bad and not all customers have realistic expectation but, IMO there is an undeniable problem in the industry.
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California
Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2008 - 09:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This is not aimed at anyone in particular, but, in reference Documentation fees.....

I will only speak for the State of California, as I was a residentfor 56 years, and a auto slesperson and dealer for 38 years;

The documentation fee is, by law, optional at the dealer's choice, once a year. if a dealer chooses to charge a Doc fee to any one customer during a calendar year, he MUST charge a doc fee to every customer for that year. If he chooses to not charge you the fee, he still has to show it on the contract and can only reduce the selling price to compensate. Since the state wrote the law that way, for all intents and purposes, it is required by law, because what intelligent business would forego a mandated $40 - $65 "fee" on every sale?
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Johnboy777
Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2008 - 10:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

joules,

okay, you win ... pay more - save a Harley dealer.


John

.
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Cityxslicker
Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2008 - 11:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I would rather pay msrp, and any applicable fees that the dealer had, than be told, you cant have that bike for 3 years because there is a wait list and your name on it is going to cost you $500.00. Funny how things change in just a short ten years. Maybe with cuts in production & delivery timing, you would be happier to put your name on a list than your butt on a bike. Didnt matter what you wanted to pay for a FLSTF in 1996, you couldnt get one, without a LONG wait list. (not at least in the tristate area of the PNW)
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Wbrisett
Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 06:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I just purchased a 2007, so I can't comment on price out the door for a 2008. However, after reading this thread, I did want to comment on a couple of things. In terms of the dealership and the purchasing itself, that was overall a good experience. The single largest issue of course is finding a knowledgeable person on Buells. One time at this same dealership, I was looking at the 06 Ulysses (while waiting on the parts folks who were busy) and the salesperson actually tried to take me away from the Buell, so he could show me a Harley that he thought would be better for me. Why? I don't know exactly, but I suspect it was due to his lack of knowledge of the Buell line.

Throughout the purchasing process, many people in the dealership admitted not really knowing much about the Buell line, but it is what it is, and this particular dealership will get better because they plan on making it a Buell / used Harley dealership. Which to me is a good sign. It means the people there will know something about the bikes.

I didn't like certain things about the way the dealership did certain things, but they made me a fair deal on the bike and my salesperson has called me a couple of times just to make sure I'm still happy with the product and everything on the bike is working out.

Would I buy another Buell from them, because ultimately that's what it all comes down to? The answer is yes. Do they add on prep, freight, doc fees? Yes. Are they knowledgeable about the product? No, and they will admit they are a bit lacking in that area, but they are improving, and they do have a couple of people including at least one on this board, who love the Buells. Are they willing to work with you on a price that both like? Yes, and in the end, I think that's really what matters. Both parties work out a price that works for the both of them.

Wayne
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Ulytide
Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 10:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Bought a 2008 at MSRP of $11495 + 149 doc fee and I paid for my first service at the same time, $300. The big Buell dealer is down south but they sell to returning military people and they charge over MSRP plus they would rather sell you a Harley to make more money. There is a closer dealer to my house but I ended up going up north about 30 miles because they have sales people who ride, and ride Buells. When asking about resale, they showed me used Buells that they took in on trade. They also had some accessories on display.
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Court
Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 10:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Crusty, I'm with you. I guess I am just an easy mark. Each of the bikes I've bought over the past 25 years I've simply asked the dealer to give me the best fair price they could.

More times than not I am surprised.

It scares me to think what might have happened if I'd shopped solely on price.

I feel so left out not having a collection of dealer horror stories. . . . I've only met about 124 Buell dealers but I'm sure I am about to meet the one everyone complains about.
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Court
Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 10:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

>>>"Out the door" has too many variables. Some are paying sales tax at the dealer and others are paying at the DMV.

Try what I do with Mercedes-Benz. Call 3 days in advance, tell them "I'm leaving my office, won't be back until after I pick up the car and I need to know how much to write the check for?"
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Electraglider_1997
Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 11:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I let dealers know ahead of time that when I come in to make out the check that it will be for the exact price that we came to an agreement on and not a penny more or the deal is off. Works for me. Doc fees are total BS and so is setup IMHO.
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Court
Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 12:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

>>>>I let dealers know ahead of time that when I come in to make out the check that it will be for the exact price that we came to an agreement on and not a penny more or the deal is off.

Precisely. And I give myself 3 days to mull that price over. I don't shop it, I just put it on the "motorcycle-camera-guitar" scales I use to weigh toy purchases.

It works or it doesn't.
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Nopork
Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 04:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

On my 08' Uly I paid $11,477, last November, including 6.5% Mn. Sales tax and a license/doc fee of around $50. I told the dealer I was willing to pay MSRP including all tax, license, setup, document fees or whatever. MSRP was $11,495, they came in at $11,477 "out the door" including sales tax, and any other BS. So I figure the sell price of the bike before tax and license was around $10,730.
Also, around 3 weeks ago I did the same type of deal on a new 08' Ultra at MSRP including all of the above, but at a different dealer. They are dealing in the frozen tundra of northern Minnesota.
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Buellsruell
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2008 - 09:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I sent a few emails to every Buell dealer around me here in NJ today, asking to sell me an 08 Uly for $11k "OTD" (including NJ TAX). I got a reply from Edison Buell already, saying they will check the numbers and get back to me tomorrow.

I HOPE they can do it, as they are the closest dealer to me (only 1/2hr or so).
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Nitsebes
Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 09:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

So did they come up with a price ?
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