| Author | Message | ||
     Johnny_uly |
Okay, so my brother's Uly was changed to synthetic oil at the first service. After that, he noticed it was pinging and not running as smoothly. He has switched back to natural oil as he does not have a lot of miles on it yet (can you switch anytime?). He said it is running much better now and the pinging has stopped. Has anyone had any experience with this and does this make sense? Thanks! John | ||
| Etennuly |
I have personally seen (or heard) one that was changed to synthetic at the 1000 mile change and it sounded awful. It didn't ping, but the engine sounded like a loose bag of marbles going through a blender. He switched back to dino oil until his next change and it was much quieter. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I didn't put synthetic in it until 3,000 miles. You can switch anytime. I'd put a few more miles on it and try again. | ||
| Chris_socal |
Pinging was putting is nicely. It did probably sound closer to a loose bag of marbles. I am going to run it for a while on regular. I did notice that the bike ran a bit cooler on the synthetic. Any insight as to why this happens with the synthetic on these engines? -Chris | ||
| Etennuly |
All I can figure about that is that they are not broke in and that syn oil is much thinner than dino. Makes things much slipperier but the dino's thickness absorbs impact and noise better. But that is speculative and only my opinion. | ||
| Motomut |
Make sure you use the correct grade from a quality supplier of oil; being synthetic or dino will not cause the issues you are seeing. | ||
| Chris_socal |
I have been letting the dealer do the maint and changes on it. I would assume (maybe I am wrong) that they would put in the correct grade. Etennuly, I think you and everyone else that has said something similar are on the right track with your thinking. I have been reading a lot about this online lately and basically what I found was this: The synthetic is thinner and will allow your engine to get up to temp faster but will not breakdown as fast at higher temps. The dino is basically inverse to the synthetic as stated above. Nobody had any real reason as to why you couldn't switch between the two. Most people who I have heard say that you can't do it merely say "that is just what they heard from some guy." All of the car and truck websites say that there is no real issue with it. Keep in mind there are synthetic blends (i.e. Valvoline DuraBlend)that are sold so I can't see how mixing or even switching out the type will hurt anything. Now the one thing I have heard, but have not been able to corroborate, is that on older engines the synthetic can dry up old seals and cause leaks. -Chris | ||
| Blake |
If the viscosity grade is the same, like say 20W50, then the oil won't be any "thinner". Neither is synthetic, if of the same viscosity grade, any slipperier. Only thing I can fathom is that the bike is burning some oil and maybe the synthetic causes more severe carbon to build up in the combustion chamber, causing hot spots, leading to detonation/pinging. | ||
| Chrisgrant |
I had the same experience with my ATV. I changed to AMS syn and found that engine noise is louder. The viscosity is thinner though as was recommended by the Suzuki dealer for some reason. With only 30 miles on the Uly, its not quite time for an oil change. (Message edited by chrisgrant on January 17, 2008) | ||
| Thunderbox |
There is no doubt your engine will sound noisier on start up with synthetic oil in the crankcase. The reason for this is the oil is thinner when cold and therefore you get more mechanical noise. You may think the noise is a pinging which isn't the case. I doubt you would notice a significant difference in engine noise once it is at operating temperature. I know from experience that all oils be they "dino or syn" are not equal and you may want to try a different brand of synthetic than is in your bike now. Many have had good results from Amsoil, I have found it to cause valve train noise. I switched brands and the noise went away. One thing that people think is synthetic is really an artificial oil. This is not true, it is normal oil that has gone through a process which ensures the molecules in the oil are all of the same size, where as Dino oil, as it's refered to, is oil that has molecules of differing sizes. So in lay terms synthetic is a dino oil that has had the molecules sorted out by size and only the molecules of a certain size range are kept. | ||
| Hughlysses |
One thing that people think is synthetic is really an artificial oil. This is not true, it is normal oil that has gone through a process which ensures the molecules in the oil are all of the same size, where as Dino oil, as it's refered to, is oil that has molecules of differing sizes. So in lay terms synthetic is a dino oil that has had the molecules sorted out by size and only the molecules of a certain size range are kept. Thunderbox, what you say is true for some types of "synthetic" oil. The synthetic oils made from "Group III" base stocks fit your description. Syn3 is evidently one of these, so is Castrol synthetic, and depending on who you believe, Mobil-1 auto oils. (Note that in Europe you cannot call your product "synthetic" if it is made from Group III basestock.) Group IV synthetics start with petroleum, but the chemicals are completely broken down and re-combined such that nothing of the original remains. Mobil-1 motorcycle oils are Group IV. Group V synthetics don't even start with petroleum oil; they're made from chemicals called esters. Redline is one example of a Group V synthetic. Read more here: http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html | ||
| Supertoon |
Wow, excellent article Hugh, now I can go around annoying my friends with my limitless knowledge of refining techniques and oil types. I know my girlfriend's Mini comes from the factory with synthetic and she is required to change only every 24 000 km, as compared to my Subie dealership who gladly switched my to Syn ( or a blend) but still requires oil changes at 6000 km... Go figure | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
The bit about syn oils drying out seals doesn't seem like a correct statement to me. If a cylinder seal is dried out the syn might be able to migrate through and leak but dry it out, I doubt it. I've heard the opposite, about syn plumping up dried out seals and I'd believe that before the drying bit. Back in 1976 I came back from being overseas for a year and went to fire up my 750cc Honda and apparently the seals were dried out because they leaked like a sieve. It wasn't syn oil either. By the way, for years now I have used auto Mobil 1 15W50 in all my bikes and with no problems. | ||
| Thunderbox |
Hey Electraglider I think when they refer to the problem with oils and seals they are refering to swelling and shrinking of seals for different types of oil. I think when syn first arrived on the market it had a tendency to shrink the seal surface and that caused the leaking problems but newer syns don't seem to cause these problems. | ||
| Jammin_joules |
I have run AmsOil Synthetic in Joules since 500 miles, has over 8,000 before snows parked us - no pinging | ||
| Tootal |
If you have been running dyno oil for a long time and then switch to synthetic and your seals leak it's because the synthetic just cleaned all the sludge off the seals. If you keep running the synthetic it will eventually swell the seal and stop the leak if it's not too far gone already. | ||
| Ulyrider2006 |
Just to add my tidbit. I switched from the HD oil provided by the dealer to a Mobil 1 TWS motorsport oil. This is the same oil used in BMW M racing engines. it is the same viscosity but I got significantly more engine noise, especially valvetrain noise. I can't explain the noise phenomenon but it happens. the reason there were lots of leaks after switching is a combination of whats been said previously. 1. Synthetic oil molecules are significantly smaller than conventional oil molecules resulting in oil leaks where there werern't any before. 2. Seals do shrink and swell. I can't say that Synthetic oil exascerbates the problem, but shrinking and swelling is normal. 3. Synthetics do run cleaner so there is possibly some truth behind the sludge statement. the additive and detergent packages in synthetics are significantly higher. thats what I know for what it's worth. | ||
| Bdutro |
Lighter oils may also slip past the valve-stem seals or crankcase breather. Oil vapors reduce effective octane ratings and will lead to pre-ignition. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Oil vapors reduce effective octane ratings and will lead to pre-ignition. It would certainly be worth checking the oil level too. Over-filling could do the same thing. ~8000 miles on mine, Mobil-1 synthetic since ~5500 miles and no pinging. | ||
| Gotj |
"Lighter oils may also slip past the valve-stem seals or crankcase breather." I thought the discussion was about synthetic versus dino oils of the same viscosity, not oils of different viscosity. If so, why is "lighter oil" in here?  | ||
| Thunderbox |
The actual question is "Sythetic oil causing pinging?" Has nothing to do with any viscositiy question. Sometimes I think it would be nice if the originator of any topic could delete answers not pertaining to the original subject. | ||
| Gotj |
"Sometimes I think it would be nice if the originator of any topic could delete answers not pertaining to the original subject." My thoughts EXACTLY. So he has to specify "synthetic oil OF THE SAME VISCOSITY" in the thread subject to keep viscosity issues out of the thread? His first post said, "my brother's Uly was changed to synthetic oil at the first service" The clear implication is that the question relates to whether you get pinging when switching from from dino to synthetic oils of the same viscosity. | ||
| Etennuly |
I think what he was meaning to say is that Syn oils are thinner when they are cold. When the engine is cold clearances open up and allow the thin when cold syn oil to pass. Where in the dino oils that are naturally thick when cold would not pass. | ||
| Gotj |
Now I'm really confused. You're saying a 20W-50 dino oil is thicker than a 20W-50 synthetic oil. I'm interested in where that info originated. That would mean that 20W isn't really 20W. Hmmmmm.  | ||
| Etennuly |
"When it is COLD". I change oil on customer vehicles frequently. In the cold winter months the dino oils will be thicker regardless of what their viscosity is supposed to be. Synthetics resist viscosity change better in the cold there by staying thinner as they are supposed to. Just set out a quart of 20-50 dino(or what ever number) and an equal viscosity number synthetic. See which one will pour out tomorrow morning when the temps reach fifteen degrees. | ||
| Ulyrider2006 |
I have to agree with Etennuly on that. I've seen cases when I bring in a dead cold car that has syn and the oil runs out just like it was 75 deg. bring in another car pre 1997 (we only used synthetic after that) and its like trying to watch syrup drain. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Another thing to consider if this was the first service is an adjustment to the primary. If the chain is in a different adjustment (tighter or looser then pre-service), the "clatter" made by the engine will be different. Ditto a clutch adjustment. If the noise was not actually detonation "pinging" but may have been mechanical noise as stated by the poster waaaay back up there, it could simply be due to the differences in adjustments. A switch back to dino would diminish cold clatter without changing those adjustments, for the reasons noted above. Cold dino is molasses; cold syn is..well, still oil. | ||
| Conchop |
I just did my 1k service on my 08. I adjusted my primary chain too. Hot adjustment calls for 1/4 inch play and thats where its at now. I am using Amsoil 20/50 motorcycle oil in the motor and tranny. As with everything I put the Amsoil in, everything gets "happy". There was a dip in overall vibration [an issue I've had with the Uly]and the shifting feel,action, and noise is reduced. The initial dab into 1st was a clunk, now all but gone and 2nd to 3rd is more positive. The hopping it did at idle has been diminished somewhat , too. I have only put 29 miles on the post service test ride but life is nice. Now I will be a greedy capitalist - go to consolidatedchopper.com and click the link to Amsoil and get you some! | ||
| Johnny_uly |
Thanks for the replies everyone, I know I have not replied but I have been reading the replies. I know a good amount more about oil now so thanks! John | ||
| Longdog_cymru |
20/50 is 20/50 whether it is Dino or Synth. Period. The numbers refer to the viscosity of the product. The first figure is the viscosity when cold, the second is the viscosity when hot. Oil thins when heated and thickens when cooled. Choosing the proper motor oil viscosity grade for the ambient temperature of your geographic location is therefore vitally important. In a monograde oil the motor oil viscosity is defined at only one temperature, either high or low. A multigrade must keep a viscosity that will protect the engine effectively at both high and low temperatures. This makes multigrades an easy and popular year-round choice for drivers who experience hot summers and harsh winters. Multigrades are easily recognized by the dual viscosity rating (i.e. 10W-30 where the 10W is the low temperature or winter designation and the 30 is the high temperature designation). It is the motor oil viscosity modifier additive that produces a thickening effect at high temperatures but is dormant at low temperatures. Synthetic oils, however, are manufactured specifically to stand up to the severe conditions under which conventional oils might falter. They possess viscosity characteristics superior to those of mineral oils. The resulting lubricants have a molecular structure that meet and often exceed manufacturers' criteria for high-performance engines. Among the many performance advantages that synthetic oils offer is their ability to remain stable at high temperatures (under which conventional oils begin to break down) and remain fluid at low temperatures (under which conventional oils begin to thicken). This provides optimum lubrication at extreme temperatures, reducing wear for a cleaner, more efficient engine. Synthetics are sometimes mixed with conventional mineral oils to produce a cost-effective middle ground between the two, referred to as a "semi" or “part-synthetic." However, while semi or part-synthetics and conventional mineral oils are both capable lubricants, fully synthetic oils provide the highest level of engine protection. Hope this helps |
