| Author | Message | ||
     Snowscum |
Back in July 06 without direct link installed.   With Direct link installed. I noticed the temp and humidity is not even close in value in 2 hours span. Anyone know wtf thats about?   | ||
| Snowscum |
I am hoping that this fixes the ping and brings down the heat of the motor. Does anyone on here have the direct link installed on their bike? I rode in this morning and it was about 32 degrees and it didnt cough or backfire and seemed to run alot better. Any input would be appreciated. | ||
| Ftd |
I have DL with one of Al's (American Sport Bike) maps. I originally had it tuned at Appleton HD. If I remember right it gained 5hp/7tq over race ECM (std. Drummer/k&N). It suffered from AFV creep. I had it retuned by G'ville HD and had the AVF creep again. I then waited for Al to market his maps as I knew they would be done correctly. The bike now runs great with the American Sport Bike map. Great power but better yet the overall driveability is improved. I can't comment on the heat as I have a RSS so my fan only comes on after I turn the engine off. I can get it to ping but not easily. High ambient temp. and slow speeds get it hot and then under load it pings. No big deal though. Frank | ||
| Snowscum |
Didn't know the AFV creeps. So do you think it was a waste of money? Mine cost me $475. | ||
| Al_lighton |
snowscum, Looking at your table scares me a little. Typically we map the closed loop learn mode to 14.7:1 to prevent the closed loop learn mapping from skewing the AFV lower. If you map the closed loop learn to anything richer than 14.7:1, the AFV learn algorithms will cause the the AFV to skew downwards. But I note that your tuning is getting done at High Country HD/Buell. The altitude is high enough that you probably WANT the AFV to be much lower than 100. The goal of our tuning is to tune the bike at sea level such that the AFV normalizes to a value of 100 when operated in closed loop learn mode. If I was to drive the bike from here to there, I'm sure the AFV would learn down to a value like 80 or 85. SO maybe mapping it rich up there is a good thing because it will drive the AFV to the "correct Value. But I'm not sure, I haven't mapped a bike at 5000 feet Al | ||
| Snowscum |
The running rich might be the way their saying they can make it run 30 degrees cooler. So your first paragraph has me concerned. How would you expect it run with this tune? So the lower the value the fatter it runs? Thanks for the info! | ||
| Al_lighton |
It's important to understand how the ECM works to understand this. When your bike is running in closed loop on the O2 sensor, it WILL run, on average, at 14.7:1 AFR. The narrowband sensor and the systems designed around it are incapable of doing anything different. The MAP in your ECM across the closed loop domain will NOT hold your AFR at 14.7:1 at anything other than Sea level. That is why the AFV learning mechanism is built into the ECM. The AFV learns by comparing the injection duration determined while running in Closed loop with the Injection duration obtained from the map. That ratio sets up a scalar that modifies the injection duration obtained from the map so that the bike is running right at any altitude. Here is the problem with what I see in that chart. BEFORE you start tuning with Directlink, you reset the AFV to 100, and you disconnect the 02 sensor so that the bike is always in Open loop, running strictly on the maps that you are tuning. Then you map the high throttle stuff, 48% and up, using dyno pull methodology. That is, do a dyno pull, plot AFR, change the tables to make the rich spots leaner and the lean spots richer. We typically target 13.5:1 AFR up top, slightly leaner in the transition zone.] BUT, when you get into the section of the map that covers closed loop learn mode, you MUST map it to 14.7:1 if you want the AFV to hold at 100 after you take it off the dyno and put it back on the road/track. If you map richer than 14.7:1 across Closed loop learn, the AFV will creep downwards, undoing all of the mapping that you did up top. This is where it gets strange for YOUR conditions. You're at 5-6000 feet of altitude. If you reset the AFV to 100 prior to tuning, and then you map it to 14.7:1 across AFV learn mode, your AFV is going to hold at 100 when operated off the dyno. But if you then drove to sea level, your AFV will go up, maybe as high as 120, to give your engine enough fuel down here in the thick air. I THINK it would still work just fine, but it wouldn't be "standard". An AFV rest still puts it back at 100, which would be "wrong" down here relative to a stock bike. In a perfect world, the way I would tune at 6000 feet if I ran a dyno there would take some experimentation. First, I'd determine what a "stock" bike has it's AFV at at the altitude that the dyno is at. Next, I'd determine what AFR results in obtaining that AFV at that altitude. That would take some experimentation. Then, when I mapped a bike, instead of resetting the AFV to 100, I'd drive it to the normal value by modifying the closed loop learn cells across a range and operating the bike on the dyno until it hit it. If it was a stock bike before I started, it is likely that it would already be at approximately the right value and I wouldn't reset. Then I would tune the closed loop learn NOT to 14.7:1, but to something richer per what I learned in the previous paragraph. It's an interesting problem, one I haven't thought of much because all of our tuning has been done at sea level. I suspect that the tuning they did to 14.1:1 across closed loop learn may be a good thing. But if they reset the AFV to 100 prior to doing the open loop tuning, then the AFV when it learns down to the "proper" AFV for the altitude that you're at will make the bike leaner. that could be a real problem. You might want to ask them this question: "Did you reset the AFV to 100 prior to doing the open loop tuning?" If there answer is yes, then you may have a problem. I would operate the bike, let the AFV learn, and then get a WOT dyo run. If it isn't at 13:1-13.5:1 in the upper RPMs, you have an issue. Al | ||
| Davo |
Al, Have you tried pulling the VSS wire at the ECM? | ||
| Snowscum |
Thanks for the info Al! One question about their techs. I was told they have been to the direct link classes. Would they teach that about "reseting the AFV to the 100 prior to doing the open loop tuning"? Hi Davo! | ||
| Snowscum |
Went for a 70 mile jaunt this morning. Had a little trouble getting it started again. Just seems to have trouble getting the fuel up for some reason. Mostly if its cold in the garage. I did notice on the ride it wants to pop through the exhaust after a hard roll on. Its not to bad but does that mean it running on the rich side? Heat does seem to have come down some but it was a chill ride up coal creek canyon so its still hard to tell yet if it runs 30 degrees cooler as advertised. | ||
| Snowscum |
I think I feel the AFV creep you guys are talking about. That $475 tune doesnt take affect when its running hot. It seemed to take a few degrees off but even today on the way back from Carter the fan came on and it was only 70-+ with clouds and riding against a cool breeze. Exhaust seems to run a tab bit cooler. It still pops out the exhaust cold when rolling on. I had a small experince with ping a while back. Today it didn't and that was a good sign.I'm still not sure if this was worth the money. I haven't givin any feed back to dealer yet. Has anyone else installed direct link and had the dealer tune it? Al are these numbers close to what you were getting (HP/TQ)? | ||
| Aeholton |
Snowscum - Your #'s are close to what I saw when I ran my bike last year (however, mine wasn't Direct Link tuned): Dynorun.001=Stock ECM, Stock Filter, and Special Ops Tailgunner pipe. Dynorun.004=Race ECM, Race Filter, and Race exhaust.  | ||
| Ftd |
I don't have my dyno runs in front of me but if I remember corretcly on Appleton's dyno (considered a conservative one) my ULY had 84 HP with Drummer/KN/race ECM and 89 HP after DL tune. The most noticeable trait that my bike had after the AFV creep was driveability was horrible. Huge stumble just off idle made it very difficult to get the bike moving from a stop. Steady speed highway riding and full throttle runs seemed fine. I have been running Al's map for a while now (months) and bike eveything is great. Noticeable power increase but I can't say it runs cooler. Frank | ||
| Ftd |
Found it:  | ||
| Snowscum |
7 more hp than what I'm getting. What altitude are you at? | ||
| Ftd |
I live in Orlando but that dyno was run in Appleton Wi at who knows what altitude?? Supposedly that is a conservative dyno. Frank | ||
| Ejc |
Appleton's altitude is around 800 feet above sea level. | ||
| Snowscum |
Yea its 5200 something feet here. So it makes sense. Still would like to take it down to sea level someday. I bet its like you installed turbo. Lol | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
Al has been at this DL Stuff on Buells for over two years now and he and I have developed a good understanding of what the ECM is doing in "Closed Loop". Now having said that, we still figure out a new piece of the puzzle each month. I have had Al's XB9 up here in N.-Calif for a year just doing different versions of the XB9 Stuff. We have used my ULY for the XB12 Maps and that has now grown to include new maps for the Rev Perf 1208 and 90 inch High Performance Stage 3 motors. Please don't get down on the Appleton Tech's, as they are a great bunch of guys and tuned the bikes the way they were taught. I do not see any way a shop can sell Buell DL Dyno Tuning, as it takes anywhere between 5 to 20 hours hrs to develop a Map. So even at a $50/Hr it is prohibitive to try one at a time custom maps. Please remember none of this is OEM training it is all learned with experience, as the Motor Company keeps a pretty tight lid on how it all goes together. One thing is for sure for reasons that are clear (The Feds) Buell designed the motors to run lean in closed loop and lean = hotter. The bikes heat management system works well on everything except your right leg, so consider the right side scoop, using good synthetic oil and the highest octane gas you can get. Remember if the AFV stays greater than 95 and less than 105 the MAP is pretty close and the ECM is controlling the changes in riding conditions. One of our goals with the new Dyno Equipment is to refine the process using better data to improve the all the DL Maps. ... Hope this helps Terry | ||
| Opto |
Terry, Hi, how are you going with the DL ignition mapping, about a year ago you said you were working on it. Did anything good, or interesting, come out of that? Do you use the stock injectors and throttle body for the 90 inch Stage 3 motors? Sorry lots of questions, I haven't posted for a long time. Ian. | ||
| Snowscum |
Well to get back to this post after a hot summer here. It still pings and gets way to hot. So after spending $400 for the direct link, I think it was a waste of money. Retuning a race ecm is not really the smart thing todo. It would be nice to have someone else look at my bike and get a better result. |
