| Author |
Message |
    
Radegast
| | Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 10:51 pm: | 
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I have an '07 with a little over 200 miles on it. Today it was in the low 80's and humid. (Galveston) I did some slow traffic, stop lights, highway, etc. I even tried loading up in high gears to make mine ping ... it never did. Now I will mention that my fan runs almost all the time. BTW, has anyone with ping issues had any damage reported other than loss of power? My old X-1 would ping if I sat at a stop light for more than 2-3 minutes in Houston heat, but would clear out once I was rolling. Has anyone had it go into "skip-fire" mode? |
Davo
| | Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 10:59 pm: |
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I do not remember anyone reporting skip spark mode in the past year. Even a Uly with a burned out fan made it home with the stock right side scoop removed for added protection. That bike to the best of my recollection never went into skip spark. I have not been able to determine the ET that initiates skip spark. The highest head temps I have heard of were in the 430's and the fan goes on at 428F. The only damage that has been reported is excess oil consumption which is characteristic of a cooked piston. |
Radegast
| | Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 11:54 pm: |
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My fan runs on high almost all the time. I can't imagine my cylinder(s) being above 400F, but I guess they could be. On air cooled airplane engines, 450F is where the aluminum heads start to separate from the steel cylinders. I would think if the fan comes on at 428F it may be too little too late. What temp does oil boil at? |
Davo
| | Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 07:39 am: |
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The ET sensor is very close to the exhaust valve on the top of the rear head. This is a very hot spot on the engine. My garage arrival temperatures were in the 390's most of the time. The Uly is designed to reach 428 then cool down to a operating temperature that is consistent for emissions, power and fuel economy. That is why the fan runs even on cool days. The fan will run during shut down to keep oil that is no longer being pumped from being over heated in the top end. The fan will continue to run until the ET reaches 320F with the engine off. The fan will stop running if the engine is running and the ET drops to 356F. |
Davo
| | Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 12:20 am: |
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Sorry, I posted an incorrect number. The correct number is 302F and not 320F. The fan will continue to run until the ET reaches 302F with the engine off. My typo created a 18 degree error. |
Teeps
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 08:54 am: |
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Thought I'd still this subject back to the top...
To whom ever is concerned, my Uly was pining yesterday.
Weather conditions:
sunny & clear, ambient temp. 85~90, humidity low (guessing <40%)
Driving conditions:
freeway, 65~70mph, 3rd or 4th gear moderate roll-on.
Pinging is heard at 3500rpm every time.
Fuel: Chevron Premium
As I have stated before in other ping related threads, I cannot hear the pinging with earplugs & full face helmet. |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 12:20 pm: |
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They'ed have to change the updating algorithims in the ECM to make it learn faster but that might require a faster processor. I'm no programmer
It always thrills me to see something on badweb I can actually answer. 
The processor is plenty fast, thats not why learning is slow. It is more likely the stability of control algorithm that limits things.
Think of a shower where there is a delay of a few seconds between turning the hot water knob and the water on your body actually getting hotter. If you want to adjust the temperature, you have to do it slowly. If you don't, you'll get it too hot, then too cold, then too hot and it will never settle down to the right temp. It's the same sort of issue. |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 12:30 pm: |
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As I have stated before in other ping related threads, I cannot hear the pinging with earplugs & full face helmet.
That worries me, as I generally ride with a full face and earplugs. I don't think my bike pings, who knows. Someone else described the pinging as "the bike sounds like a diesel jack hammer and the power goes to $hit." I know my bike doesn't do that.
I know of at least one case where someone thought their bike pinged, but it was really just mechanical noise.
I'm just the type of person who can be a hypochondriac about their bike. It would be nice to have a definitive description of what pinging sounded like. |
Teeps
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 12:52 pm: |
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If your bike pings, and I suspect that it will, do this:
Ride the bike until it has reached operating temperature.
Then find a hill, that is at least 1/4 mile long, preferably straight, with a grade of 4% or more.
Drive up hill in 3rd gear at 3000 rpm.
Then briskly roll the throttle on to WOT. No need to snap the throttle to WOT, just roll it on.
If your bike pings, you should hear it starting around 3500rpm, and continue through 4500rpm, give or take a few hun/rpm.
The pining sounds a lot like loose change rattling in a glass jar. |
Davo
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 01:46 pm: |
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Jlnance,
Here is a thread with a description of the difference between valve train noise and pinging.
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/266195.html#POST852859 |
Jim_sb
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 02:13 pm: |
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Hello Teeps,
Sounds just like my bike. I can even hear it with my FF helmet on and earplugs in.
It's not valve train noise. I previously owned a Sportster and a Buell S2 - they did not ping at all.
I'm going to contact Buell CS shortly and take the bike in and let them have at it.
Best,
Jim in Santa Barbara |
Stevem123
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 03:10 pm: |
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Hey Jim,
Great seeing you this weekend!
I don't understand it. I got my Uly hot, flogged it, slow stop&go in traffic, and just about everything else in-between. Not a single ping! I don't know what happened but the symptom I was seeing like yours and others just went away??? I'm not complaining of course but it would be nice to know what changed.
BC Steve |
Jim_sb
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 04:19 pm: |
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Hi Steve,
I don't get it either.
The Ulysses is so close to being the perfect bike for me.
I would really like to get the pinging resolved if possible.
That done I may look into sending the forks out to see if I can have them improved - my Uly does not handle stutter bumps well (off pavement). That may require rear shock work as well.
Then I'd like just a tiny bit more wind protection. Not much - just something to help out in those rare times (like Sunday) when I have to drone along mile after mile of straight highway.
The Pirelli Scorpion Syncs have been just fine. I did manage to lock up the front going into a corner yesterday and it started to tuck. I guess I found the limit of the Sync's. 
They have been great so far - but I liked the D616's as well. I need to see how the Syncs do off pavement.
Great seeing you and your family last weekend Steve.
Best,
Jim in Santa Barbara |
Ihavemanyfleas
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 09:05 pm: |
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I still need to call CS again about my new motor. The uphill trick works to get the ping, but inconsistently. My new motor pings, and probably worse than the last one. If you run at constant throttle at 30 or 40 mph for about a minute or two, then roll back the throttle, it will ping like crazy for a little while, then go away. I think I've found a consistent way to reproduce the issue, so I need to go spend some time with a tech to show them how to reproduce it. Part of getting this resolved is to prove it. I sent my bike with the new motor in to have them check it out, and the same person who got it to ping the first time said that he couldnt reproduce it. You might get the sense that they don't want to reproduce it. So, trying to be patient, I'm just going to have to show it to them this weekend.
(Message edited by ihavemanyfleas on May 07, 2007)
(Message edited by ihavemanyfleas on May 07, 2007) |
Davo
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 09:45 pm: |
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Ihavemanyfleas,
Do you know where the TDC mark is on the flywheel when the fuel pump cycles? I recommend that you retard the timing until the pinging stops. It appears the factory still does not have a fix. There has been a history of success with the procedure. Your problems will only get worse as the temperatures of summer increase.
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/327 77/211240.html?1153091226 |
Dentguy
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 11:26 pm: |
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If the factory does have a fix, I don't know about it yet. I finally got in a few long rides after getting the bike back from the dealer ping check over, where it was verified and checked over with input from Buell CS. First ride pinging was worse than before. They changed the fuel so I ran it all out and put in fresh. It seemed better, but then this past saturday it was back. It was in the 60s and raining, 1/2 to 3/4 throttle, 3000 rpm and up. After first being told that Buell CS said it is within specs to just ride it. Then being told four days later to bring it back that Buell wants us to tear it down to take measurements I don't think they have a fix. I have left four messages with CS, but have not got a call back. The dealer was also going to check into other options before digging in and get back to me. That was three weeks ago. I am starting to feel like I am being avoided. Maybe they are just busy. On a good note when I wear ear plugs I don't hear it. |
Dualbuelljohn
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 11:49 pm: |
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I would check a different brand of gas. Winter gas is usually oxygenated which decreases mileage and usually makes engines run like crap. That being aside. check the plugs for incorrect gapping, then look at timing issues.
John |
Dentguy
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 12:04 am: |
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Dualbuelljohn....Thanks for the input. It's had just about every kind of premium from a pump possible in probably eleven different states. Pinging since break in, about 6000 miles. I bought it in Sept. 2005 so it's had both summer and winter fuel. Plugs have about 250 miles on them, gap is on the mark. The timing mark is dead center. Retarding the timing will stop the pinging, but I was hoping Buell had a fix. |
Davo
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 03:51 am: |
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Dentguy,
As of the middle of March there was no factory fix. The culprit is compression. I would check your compression if you want to verify the compression theory. If the compression is 170 psi or greater then pull your plugs prior to retarding the timing so that you can see the difference once you retard the timing. Usually retarding the timing will make your engine lazy. If your engine is really pinging, it will clean it up and wake it up. If it doesn't then go back to the factory setting. 1mm equals 3 degrees. A .040 spark plug gauge is exactly 3 degrees on the outside diameter of the CPS. Each mark on the inner CPS scale is 10 degrees. Make sure you scribe the factory location on the CPS so you can go back. To retard, the CPS should be turned counter clockwise.
Also,
Bring it down to Blackstone one afternoon if you want to check the numbers. I am 50 miles SW of Richmond.
(Message edited by davo on May 08, 2007)
(Message edited by davo on May 08, 2007) |
Jmhinkle
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 07:33 am: |
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Davo,
I have a question for you. I live at 5300ft and never get pinging. Hell to see 170 psi on a NA engine up here is next to impossible. Nevertheless, when I had my bike in Cleveland last year in the middle of summer, it pinged like crazy. Since my bike runs great at doesn't ping at this altitude, do I leave it alone and adjust the timing if I plan to go to lower altitudes this year or just adjust it anyways? |
Davo
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 07:45 am: |
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Jmhinkle,
I think an engine should be tuned for the conditions that it needs to run in the most. I would not de-tune it unless the pinging was moderate to severe at lower altitudes. A solution would be to ad HD fuel conditioner when you leave the mountains or replace the rivets on the timing cone with screws so that you can make a quick timing change when needed. I had three index marks on mine, stock, 3 degrees and 7 degrees. You can change timing quicker than fuel stop. |
Teeps
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 09:38 am: |
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Davo,
I will be surprised if Buell ever admits that the engine compression ratio is too high, or that "too" much compression is the culprit.
I will stick with my simple theory that the IG mapping is the problem, probably due to meeting emissions. That being said, it can take many months for the factory to come up with a repair that makes everybody (EPA) happy.
For now we the owners have 3 choices:
do nothing (easiest;also no ping related engine failures reported here.)
retard the timing (easy enough, not the final answer IMO)
add octane booster (somewhat a hassle, has on going cost factor, long term use consequences unknown.)
toluene 10%~15% is rumored to work well and can be had for $10 a gallon at local house paint stores.) |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 10:52 am: |
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I have not posted for several months, as we have been busy buying Dyno equipment. Sometime in June I will be doing a few training runs using one of the items we purchased, a Knock Sensor. I have been working on the timing tables on my ULY for the last year and think I have found most of cells in the timing tables that are causing the pinging. I have discussed this with Al at American Sport Bike and as soon as we can define all the problem cells and correct the timing we will publish some "Timing Safe Maps" The new Dyno will use a five gas analyzer as well as the knock sensor to help define cells with excess timing. Those cells show up with excess 02 on the five gas. My experence to date as we have posted here before, is that there are several cells on the rear cyl spark Map that are leading the front cyl. While it is not written in stone most tuners perfer the rear to follow the front by 3-4 deg. I have a seat of the pants custom spark Map and no longer have any pining on my ULY. ... Terry
(Message edited by buelldyno_guy on May 08, 2007)
(Message edited by buelldyno_guy on May 08, 2007) |
Davo
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 01:19 pm: |
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Buelldyno guy,
Thanks for the info. Have you been able to identify the TDC mark, during a dynamic run, as it relates to the ECM's numbers? I am very curious about idle and at 2.8-3.1K/9-12 TPS with the VSS above 50mph |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 02:54 pm: |
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Dave at this point it has only been looking at the data we see using Direct Link. The DL Maps follow the actual ECM tables so the RPM and TP data is not too easy to smooth out, as the settings and RPM don't move in a rounded off number. A good example is with the bike at an idle of approx. 1050 it is between the 800 RPM and 1500 RPM cell. Yes there is an active cell and that is the one we change, but there is not a cell for 1000 RPM. The same goes for the spark tables. I also tune a race bike using the DOS Program and it was with that program where we could see some of the Temp, Skewing for both the Fuel and Spark Look-up Tables. My experience is that the bike always wants (0) Zero Static Timing. I am not too sure once it is started and temp skewing starts, that dynamic timing is of much value due to the changing cylinder head temperature. When I was at the shop we would notice that if the static timing was off even a few deg. the bike could have issues during starting and at idle. Both Al and believe the folks at Buell don't make too many mistakes and some of the issues with pinging on some models may have been corrected on the latest Buell ECM Calibration. ... Terry |
Davo
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 04:36 pm: |
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Buelldyno guy,
Are you aware of the initial off set of the CPS as it relates to the dynamic idle setting? If my observations were correct then you need to build (add) an additional 7 degrees to what ever numbers the DL is reading out in order to interpret where the cylinder is actually firing. My concern was if the VDSTS numbers are correct then the curve is steep and even more steep when the 7 degrees of initial are added to the equation. I agree that the people at Buell know what they are doing, but in order for me to trouble shoot Buells, I need to know what the people at Buell were doing when they knew what they were doing. I have seen several sets of data pertaining to the spark advance and they have quite a bit of variance. I find it curious that fuel mapping is always done dynamically and yet there is little known about the dynamic numbers regarding the "actual" timing curve of these engines as it relates to a light, similar to the way actual fueling relates to a O2 sensor. Thanks for the reply. |
Thunderbox
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 04:38 pm: |
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Teeps said "To whom ever is concerned, my Uly was pining yesterday.
Weather conditions:
sunny & clear, ambient temp. 85~90, humidity low (guessing <40%)
Driving conditions:
freeway, 65~70mph, 3rd or 4th gear moderate roll-on.
Pinging is heard at 3500rpm every time.
Fuel: Chevron Premium
I'm starting to wonder if it is really pinging people are hearing or just piston noise. The reason I am wondering that is now that I read Teeps post, which by the way is a great explanation of when it is happening and under which conditions. I am thinking I sometimes hear a mechanical noise about that same RPM. I am positive it is not pinging. I am 99.9 percent sure it is a slight piston noise not uncommon in air cooled engines. Nothing serious but I can hear it. I am absolutely sure it is not pinging. Weather this is the same noise he hears or not I don't know. But it sure would go a long way to understanding how this "pinging" could be such a wide spread problem yet the dealers can't get them to ping. Just to clarify what real pinging sounds like, it is a sound very similar to what a hand full of steel ball bearings would sound like when you hold them loosely in your hand and shake them. Thats what pinging sounds like. Just a thought for someone to think about. |
Davo
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 05:35 pm: |
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Thunderbox,
You have made a good point, and the "retard till it quits solution" will only correct the pinging so any other noises will continue. Either the the pinging is corrected or your engine will get a little lazy and continue to make normal top end noises. Regardless it is a trouble shooting procedure. My Uly did ping prior to retarding the timing curve. No question and no doubt, but it didn't ping after the adjustment and ran much better. |
Ihavemanyfleas
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 08:49 pm: |
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1. What kind of engine damage can pinging produce?
2. what kind of performance behavior can I expect by retarding the timing?
I've been trying to ride around it, but you really can't in normal day-to-day riding. Out on the open road you can get around it, but I ride every day commuting to work and back. Today it was pinging every time I accelerated, although I was forced to crawl all the way home... even on my back route. I'm about to go in and retard the timing as I have been instructed to do numerous times
Davo, I remember you sending me some procedure on how to do this. Would it be possible to send that to me again? I seem to have misplaced the file from several months ago. |
Davo
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 09:48 pm: |
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Ihavemnanyfleas,
It is my opinion that unchecked severe pinging can cause overheating, piston damage, head gasket failure, damage to the rod at the wrist pin and/or the crank journal. Overheating can cause damage to the rings and cylinder walls and cause increased oil consumption. As you have probably noticed, pinging that is barely noticeable will compound and become more excessive with continued operation due to increased temperatures caused by the pinging itself. Now for the good news, this engine is a near bullet proof power plant. Though it is bullet proof I do not think it is entirely ping proof. If your engine is pinging the way you describe I would think that your performance would be greatly increased. The only reason that this would not be the case is if the problem was caused by leaking intake seals. We know that it can not be caused by high compression due to carbon build up because your engine is so fresh. It would be nice to hear what the factory says about your situation. They indicated that they were going through your engine when I last spoke to them in March. It seems curious to me that if your original engine had acceptable compression levels and the cam timing was ok than they would be knocking on your door to check your injectors, throttle body, fuel pump and every other bolt on sensor on your bike. If I were them I would be headed your way with a large tool box and a lap top. |
Dentguy
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 10:38 pm: |
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Thunderbox...I agree with you that some people may be hearing engine noise and mistake it for pinging. In my case there is no mistake that it is detonation and it was verified by the dealer, they just didn't fix it. Buell CS was or is involved. My guess is the reason they want to tear it down now to take measurements is that they think the piston to cylinder clearance is off causing it to run hot which makes it want to ping even more.Or the clearances could be off due to scuffing from the detonation causing it to run hot and ping more. Still wind up at the same spot. Temps were in the 60s last saturday and the fan ran nonstop on the highway. |
Dentguy
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 10:51 pm: |
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Davo...Thanks for the info and the invite. I have not checked the compression yet. I also would like to know whats going on with Ihavemanyfleas engines (old and new) due to the fact that one is so fresh. If everything is in check with the engine then it is back to the computer issues, too advanced or lean. I love the Ulysses, but it is starting to feel like too much work. |
Lorazepam
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 11:51 pm: |
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Dentguy, I feel your pain. I love my Uly, but in 12k miles, it has seen the dealer for more warranty and recall work, not to mention down time, than approx 100k miles on various oilhead BMW's. |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 12:57 am: |
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I come from the aircraft world where detonation is considered the first stage of failure. The following is a true Story:
Several years ago Shell Oil Company sold some bad 87 octane aviation gas out here on the west coast. Following an engine failure on a Cessna 172 the FAA investigation found detonation to be the root cause. That batch of gas was back traced and was found to have been shipped to several airports in Northern California. As part of the AD Note corrective action any and all AC who purchased the suspect gas were directed to accomplish a full tear-down requiring scrapping 100% of all parts. The Shell Folks made it easy they just took your suspect engine and gave you a new Zero Total Time one. None of those parts including nuts and bolts could ever be use again everything was destroyed. ...
Closer to home last year we destroyed a Buell race engine in less than two laps due to detonation. Common failures are valve stems and rods if the piston ring land last that long. What we look for with those little 35 power plug scopes are the early signs of detonation.
My reason to tune into this one is that we feel we will be able locate and correct some of the timing issues with our new Dyno equipment. ... Terry |
Jmhinkle
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 04:40 am: |
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Sorry if this is a rehash, but once I drill out the rivets to make the timing plate accessible, is the case threaded for bolts and if so what size? If not, what is the correct size tap to use? TIA |
Davo
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 05:43 am: |
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The plate is not tapped for threads but I used two 10-32 stainless steel hex head bolts 3/8" long. I tried an 8-32 first but the existing hole was a little big and the bolt did not feel tight enough. There are two sets of holes in the plate. You can use the two non-horizontal holes to practice with the tap and check the fit of the bolt. I would leave the outer trim cover off until you get it dialed in. My XL hasn't had a timing cone cover on it for several years.
There is an inner cover plate that is secured with two phillips head screws that are already threaded into the cam case cover. Before you move the CPS scribe a mark on the inner cover and the CPS to index your initial location. Then to retard the timing move the CPS counterclock wise. 1mm equals 3 degrees.
Also, be careful not to let the drill go into the rivet too deep. There are some wires in the cone.
(Message edited by davo on May 09, 2007)
(Message edited by davo on May 09, 2007)
(Message edited by davo on May 09, 2007)
(Message edited by davo on May 09, 2007) |
Teeps
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 08:49 am: |
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Thunderbox
Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007
I'm starting to wonder if it is really pinging people are hearing or just piston noise.
I can't speak for others, but what I am hearing is pining. As a young motorcycle mechanic, (yes we were mechanics not "technicians" then)I cut my teeth (so to speak) on '60s/'70s air-cooled motorcycle engines, very familiar with "the death rattle."
The reason I am wondering that is now that I read Teeps post, which by the way is a great explanation of when it is happening and under which conditions. I am thinking I sometimes hear a mechanical noise about that same RPM.
As do I, kind of a hollow ringing or chattering sound. Could be fin ringing or as others have stated, valve train harmonics. Either way, the pattern, consistency, and volume are not indicative of pinging.
And to reiterate, I have not read of a single XB engine failure, due to pining/detonation.
(Message edited by teeps on May 09, 2007) |
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