| Author | Message | ||
     Jmhinkle |
I've got 3200 miles on my 616's and recently I've notice that the rear tire is cupping badly. I've never seen a rear tire do this before. Treadwise, it would easily get 5000 miles. I haven't been overly happy with them on the street, but they've been great on my sandy dirt road. I hate to replace them early. What would make a rear tire cup like this? | ||
| Birdmanrh |
Bad/Incorrect suspension setup. or Incorrect tire pressure or Both (Message edited by BirdmanRH on February 27, 2007) | ||
| Jmhinkle |
I run the suspension according to the 200-230 lb range. I weigh 185 + gear + luggage. I have the front compression set to 1/2 turn stronger and still have what I consider massive break dive. The tires were checked a week ago and were still set to whatever the book called for air pressure. The wife and I have taken a few short trips and I adjusted the suspension for the combined weight and returned it back to my solo setting as soon as I got home. The cupping has only started within the last two weeks, but it was extremely noticeable today sitting in the garage. I don't feel it when riding.....yet. For the last 1500 miles I have had issues with the rear tire feeling like it wants to slide out when entering a turn. It comes and goes and I can't nail it down to temperature/road condition/suspension setting because it is never a consistent problem. I was running the suspension at the next lower weight for a long time because I live on a dirt road and liked it a little softer, but the on road brake dive was just too much so I went up to what I think is the right setting. If I'm not setting the suspension properly please tell me what I'm doing wrong because I'm clueless. Using the book has gotten me nowhere fast. | ||
| Birdmanrh |
First of all, book setups are just a guideline and only gets you in the ballpark, from there you need to work up and down ranges to get things right. Second, it is impossible to setup a suspension properly over the Internet or by "telling you" what to do. Tires tell a story and in this case they say your suspension is bottoming in corners for some reason, it could be a preload setting or something with damping, but without physically looking at you on the bike and being there it is just not possible to tell you what the deal is. If they have a track day organization near you I would call them and see if they can recommend a suspension person to you. Someone you can take the bike to and they can set it up for you, or suggest upgrades to make it right. Finally, you need to check your air pressure before every ride! (When the tires are cold) Not every so often. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
My front cupped in less than 2700 miles and the rear turned to black chewed bubble gum. I think the problem is the tire. | ||
| Birdmanrh |
BTW, I weight what you do and here are my settings. Front 5 - lines 1- compression 2.5 on one fork and 1.75 on the other - rebound Rear 14 - turns in 1.25 - compression 1 - rebound Now, don't get confused by different settings on the forks, the two work together as a single unit and the different setting just fine tuned it. | ||
| Jmhinkle |
Birdman, I ride my bike back and forth to work everyday and make the trip twice a day as I go home for lunch. That's 4 rides a day, 5 miles each trip for a total of 20 miles a day done 3 days one week and 4 days the next. I check the tires on Saturday/Sunday night before I leave for work for the first time of the week. If I do actually get to take a pleasure ride on the weekend I recheck them before leaving. The good news is they haven't lost a single pound of air since I bought the bike last July even with the temperature change of winter. I'm comfortable with my air checking habits. Thanks for the advice though. I also understand that the book is a beginning point and I have made my personal adjustments to compensate for massive brake dive. The way you are stating it though is that I, basically, am way out from where I should be and I have to disagree unless the starting points of the book are way out from where they should be. If I remember correctly from the progressive springs/front end dive topics, you don't have any brake dive at all right? Can you, just for my learning, tell me what your riding weight is and what suspension settings you are running? Maybe I'm to afraid to step out of the range of the book and I shouldn't be. TIA Fat Bastard, I know you have had a rough time with tires and even more so than most. I would like to believe that the tire is truly the problem, but on the other hand I feel I should be getting 5K out of it because it looked new up until a few weeks ago and I don't think I should need to change tires on a non race bike with 3200 miles that is merely a daily commuter. To make matters worse, I've always had the swimming on the front and knew it was the 616, but the damn thing still looks brand new with no cupping at all. It looks like it would go 10k at a minimum, but I don't want it on there that long. Did yours turn crappy all at once say 2500 miles or just progressive get bad from the start. One more question to all: According to the book, 320+ pounds for rear preload is 12 turns or 24 clicks if I remember right. Whose rear preload has 24 clicks? From all the way out, I have 21 clicks max in. (Message edited by jmhinkle on February 28, 2007) | ||
| Jmhinkle |
Birdman, You beat me to posting it while I was asking for it. Thanks again for that. I will compare to what I am at. I also understand that the forks work as a single unit, but why run one stiffer than the other. Lastly, how much offroad riding do you do? | ||
| Birdmanrh |
I posted what you asked for before you asked me to post it, I think...  I only made the air comment because you originally stated you had checked it a week earlier. Sorry for stating the obvious to you. As far as brake dive, I do not have what I would call excessive dive. All suspensions should travel under braking, if they don't you are way over damped. Now, on the front tire cupping I would agree with FB that the tire shares some of the issue there. As far as the rear I went through three rears and never saw cupping. (They however are nowhere near the tire that the Sync is so far) | ||
| Birdmanrh |
When setting the rebound I was close with 1.75 on both and moved one till it was correct. I guess I could go back and figure out both equally, but that's what I've got. BTW, I just checked and it is 12 not 14 and clicks not turns.  I do minimal dirt, but when I do it is not off road per see, more fire trail. | ||
| Jmhinkle |
Cool, thank you. Rebound makes total sense to me as I now understand what you meant by fine tuning. Can you check your rear preload max in if you don't mind? I'm starting to think that the problem came from the last two weekends when me and the wife went out and I realized that I can't reach the settings in the book because mine maxes before that. Maybe my rear shock is screwed up?? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The front tire "swam" from minute one. The cupping didn't make it any better or worse. It still looked good except for the minor cupping. I haven't had it happen with a single other tire. I currently have over 6,000 miles on the new front with no cupping or swim. The rear blew through tread quickly. I got 2,700 total out of it. The last 40 miles to get the tire swapped out turned it gummy. The comment from the tech was "damn, you need a tire!" I think there may be suspension settings at the core of your issues as Birdman has stated, but the tires IMHO are crap and are also at fault. The problem I am having is that I am heavier, which is hard on tires, our road are rough, which is hard on tires, and I tend to push the tires, which is hard on tires. A great set of tires will probably last me 4,000 miles. I don't expect to get more than 3,000 miles out of this set Avon Azaros. The last set lasted no more than the D616s, but at least they didn't swim. I really don't know what the answer for tires is. I really wish I did. I'm spending 2-3 times what everyone else is on tires. Sorry to side track! | ||
| Danger_dave |
What does cupping mean? Like it develops a flat spot? | ||
| 12x_infatuation |
Danger, My front developed a concave type of profile about 1/2 way between the centre & the limit of the tread towards the wall on both sides. The bike performed well enough in a straight line or full cornering mode, just during half cornering mode, it seemed like the bike wasnt happy & either wanted to straighten up or corner harder. Fatty, My rear scared me shitless one day when it was nearly worn out, when i stopped to fuel up, i noticed these crater- like cracks all over it. I thought 'that doesnt look good' & poked it only to have my finger (gloved) sink into the rubber... I let it cool down for 15 mins, & rode home at 60kph fearing for my self preservation. Pirellis front & rear now & couldnt be happier, except for the newish sync that i destroyed riding out of the bush with a puncture... Oh well only 300 AUD...  | ||
| Jmhinkle |
From the front of a tread block to the back edge it wears at an angle. Usually high in front and low in back. Can also be side to side, but mainly it causes a stair step profile on your tires. Also known as scalloping. Generally you can't feel it, but it is indicative of other issues like air pressure, suspension set up, out of balance, bad bearings, and misalignment. In all my experience with cars, trucks, motorcycles, atv's, lawn equipment it is usually a steering tire issue because of the different angles it runs at in relation to the machine itself. That's why I was so shocked when it popped up on my rear tire of the Uly and while I know the 616's are generally referred to as crap, I hadn't heard of anyone getting rear cupping before. (Message edited by jmhinkle on February 28, 2007) | ||
| Danger_dave |
As suspected - there's more than one definition of cupping. As per mr jmhinkle's I cup just about every tyre I install. Big, heavy bugger who likes to nail it out of corners - hard. Dunlops and Pirellis both - Avons too. All cuppolled. My experience is pressures (and very fussy I am), set up - whatever - makes no diff - tried 'em all up and down and all combos. Made little difference. Right wrist is what does it. Not experienced mr infatuations symptoms. (well there was this redhead once....but that's another story.) dd | ||
| Jack82 |
Spot on Dave....all my tyres cup as well.And I'm anal about suspension and tyre pressure. Stock Uly tyres started cupping at 3,000 kms. | ||
| Jmhinkle |
Danger and Jack, Are you talking front, rear, or both? | ||
| Jack82 |
Both.....but the rear is worse. | ||
| Danger_dave |
Only noticed rear on mine. | ||
| Jmhinkle |
Well, it appears to me that there was a mix up it shipping with my bike and instead of New Zealand it went to New Mexico or instead of Australia it went to Albuquerque. Either way, I have a "down under" bike, problem or riding style. Must be like the whole toilet flushing being reversed, back tire cups instead of front.  I've always wanted to visit, obviously I should pack up the family and move! | ||
| Birdmanrh |
31 clicks in on the rear preload is what I have. Cupping happens when you bottom the suspension and have nothing left but the rubber to provide damping, or when the rubber provides more damping than the suspension. Now, some tires will cup worse than others, but the more you bottom the suspension the more you get. I don't disagree that the Dunlops are not that great of a tire and I hate the front, so changing tires is a good move. I think the real problem is putting Northern Hemisphere tires on Southern Hemisphere bikes or the opposite. In fact this may be the pinging problem and fan failure problem as well. (Message edited by BirdmanRH on February 28, 2007) | ||
| Lorazepam |
I run the pressures on the sidewall of the tires, not the ones in the manual. I am heavier than the rest of you guys, 250 pounds, and I have the suspension set up for 300 pounds because I have the bags on all the time. I have never had a Dunlop radial tire that didnt cup. I dont care for them at all. running the pressures on the sidewall helps a lot, and reduces the chances for flatting as well. Now if you ride off road, that is a different matter, but gravel roads and pavement, I have the best luck upping the pressures to the max load pressure. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
You can usually feel "cupping" by rubbing your bare hand over the surface of the tire. After the D616s, I don't get cupping any more. I just lose rubber until the wear bars appear. The D616s looked like a saw blade, front AND rear. At 260 with gear, with a heavy throttle wrist, and rough roads, I can't really blame the tires. I'm just trying to find a tire that gives good grip and allows me to get more than 3,000 miles. I have tried the sport touring tires with no real advantage in duration. I will try the new Avon Storms next. If there is no real improvement, I will try the Stradas next. What I really want is one with concrete in the center and nerf on the edges. Does Dr. Seuss make tires? | ||
| Etennuly |
My rear D616 cupped quite noticeably at about 3,000 miles and it made it to 6,000 before the center wear bars went down. I also maintain air pressure. They didn't vibrate, shake, or cause any undue problems, they just looked seriously cupped. At 12,200 miles, I still have the original D616 front on and it is going to make 18,000 miles no problems with only minor cupping, and I got used to that swimming, but that settled down at about 9,000 miles. I have now got 6,200 miles on the rear Sync and it is officially shot tread wise, no cupping at all and ridden the same if not harder than the original D616, but it did handle much better in rain. Time to smoke it and put on the new Sync.  | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I called the Avon factory and got the pressure specs they recommend for the Azaros on the Uly. 36 front/42 rear. I don't know that it has made much difference. | ||
| Etennuly |
Avon......ain't that the make-up company. I know what your tire problem is. You simply run the crap out of them!!!!  | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I wondered what they meant when they asked if I wanted the "Skin So Soft" edition or not!  | ||
| Etennuly |
I was thinking of the make-up that the ladies use.......figures you'd think of lotion. Is that what you use on your tires for enhancing grip??? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Mmmmmmmmm..........enhancing grip!!!!! Might explain the throttle problems! |
