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Buell Motorcycle Forum » Big, Bad & Dirty (Buell XB12X Ulysses Adventure Board) » BB&D Archives » Archive through December 18, 2006 » Cold weather starting issues « Previous Next »

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Jmhinkle
Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 01:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

My bike has developed a problem now that the weather is cold. When I start the bike in the morning to go home from work, it starts and runs like crap. It will not start on its own like a vehicle with FI should to me. I have to blip the throttle as soon as it fires or it will die. If I blip the throttle when it fires, it will continue to run at about 750 to 800 RPM and will climb as it warms up. Once warm, the idle is normal. Is this normal for this bike or is it because I have the '07 airbox, flash, and K&N causing a lean cold start condition? Anyone else seeing these issues when starting in low 40 degree weather?
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Isaac
Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 05:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yep..... I have had the same issue since day 1 last winter. The guy at the dealer recommended firing and running with nor warming up time (easy running for some miles though). That is the only way to fire her up after a long cold night. BTW, I have a stock 06.
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Fastfxrs
Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 08:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Picked up my '06 last February-same cold weather starting problems you describe. It did seem better after the TPS reset. I just try not to touch the throttle until it runs awhile. Its hard to do as it sounds terrible idling that low but it picks up and idles better if I leave my hand off the gas.
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Whodom
Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 08:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You would probably be much better off by holding a steady slight throttle to keep the idle speed up until it's run for a couple of minutes. Lots of people have reported fouled plugs on XB's caused by blipping the throttle on a cold bike. The FI does not like it.
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Ejbeert
Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 08:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

this worked for me
start bike when cold
do not touch throttle
adjust idle cold to 1250 rpm
my idle afterwards is always hot or cold
between 1000 to 1250 rpm
and i do not have any more cold riding issues
hope this works for you
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Frankf
Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 09:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I've got the same problem with my 06. It has a K&N, race EMC, Drummer exhaust.

It won't start unless I crack the throttle a hair, then runs real ragged till it warms up. The worse running FI bike I have ever had. Wish there was a fix.
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Soloyosh
Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 10:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Mine was like that until last weekend. Adjusted the idle and zero'd the TPS (part of my 10K service along with new plugs), fires right up. I'd check to make sure your idle is set where it is supposed to be. Mine was at 950rpm hot. Now its at 1150 hot. The extra 200rpm seems to make all the difference.
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Michael1
Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 11:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

My 06... stock except for an 07 airbox, starts up abd runs awesome in the cold. No issues. Thumb the starter button for a few seconds and it'll take off. No stumbling, no additional throttle needed...just thumb and wait. I did have my TPS just done a 1000 miles ago...so maybe that helps... I am running 20W-50 as well...
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Etennuly
Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 11:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Every High performance engine that I have had runs like crap when they were cold. We open up the intake and exhaust for performance, and the higher volume of cold air rushes unrestricted through the cold engine making it even colder. These FI units do not have choke plates so when the throttle plate is opened, even a little bit, it makes the situation worse.

If the idle is set too high it opens the throttle plate intensifying the cold rush at start up. If you crack the throttle it gives a momentary rich condition, but opens the plate.

I'm thinking about putting an electric oil heater on the bike, it should help with the cold starting and help keep moisture from accumulating in the oil.
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Snowscum
Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 01:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Mine does the same thing. I try not to give it gas but wont start otherwise. The other morning I got a huge backfire at 5am. Hope my neibors did get woke up from that.

Race kit on mine so that backfire was pretty loud.
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Snowscum
Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 01:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hmm double post.....

(Message edited by snowscum on November 22, 2006)
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Davo
Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 02:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If you turn the idle up to at least 1100 it will help start up and warm up.}}
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Isaac
Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 04:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I did turn the idle thingy up last winter, then when I went for the service the guy told me it was way off its position. I adjusted it so that it will fire up, then the guy suggested the fire and run procedure.
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Jmhinkle
Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 08:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"If you turn the idle up to at least 1100 it will help start up and warm up.}}"

I actually found the opposite on mine. Mine was idling high because I was getting the "float" back down to idle speed. According to the tach idle speed seemed right. I found that I was able to turn idle down with the adjuster quite a bit and still show the correct idle on the tach. I no longer have the float back to idle speed, but Cold weather starting was not affected either way by this. It needs a throttle blip whether I have a high or low idle to fire in the morning.

Thanks for the input guys. Seems as though I was thinking the the FI on this bike was more advanced than it really is. I'll just write it off as a quirk then and continue on with riding. At least I'm not getting backfires and pops as some of you describe.
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Stevenknapp
Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 11:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Mine was bad, as you describe, now it's not. It's not the best EFI on a bike, but cold starting shouldn't be the issue you describe.

IMHO some things to check:

- zero the TPS
- Adjust idle stop. The ECU can control idle speed somewhat with ignition timing (my theory) so as you've noticed there is a range of idle adjustment that gives the same idle speed. Keeping this "centered" allows good cold and hot performance. Part of the TPS zero is to adjust the idle plate using the diag SW.
- Clean the throttle plate! Really, this made a big difference in my bike. It had a lot of gunk from oil blowby. It doesn't take much to change the relation of TPS to airflow at really small throttle openings.
- Check the plugs, or replace them. They are hard to get in/out and cheap.
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Teeps
Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 10:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Stevenknapp Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006

IMHO some things to check:

- zero the TPS
- Adjust idle stop.
The ECU can control idle speed somewhat with ignition timing (my theory) so as you've noticed there is a range of idle adjustment that gives the same idle speed. Keeping this "centered" allows good cold and hot performance. Part of the TPS zero is to adjust the idle plate using the diag SW.
- Clean the throttle plate!
Really, this made a big difference in my bike. It had a lot of gunk from oil blowby. It doesn't take much to change the relation of TPS to airflow at really small throttle openings.
- Check the plugs, or replace them. They are hard to get in/out and cheap.


Your "theory"
relating idle speed to Ignition Timing is sound, as I have observed the timing retard from +34 (cold start) down to zero when at operating temperature.

All very Sage advice Steven.}
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Murraebueller
Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 04:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

JM- All good stuff suggested above. I have the 07 airbox, download and stock air cleaner with no starting problems.I understand that you have the same setup with the addition of a K&N high flow filter. At this altitude you are definitely lean-the factory says this combo does not work well. I would suggest putting the stock air cleaner back in, adjusting the idle and see if the problem is resolved. If you need to, stop by the shop on Monday and we'll look at everything with the digital tech and change the air cleaner- service is closed so we will have plenty of time. The EFI system is quite good but limited in its parameters. Memory tells me that most EFI that comes from any factory is set up to run lean at idle and partial throttle-exactly where the EPA tests and most engines spend 80% of their lives running.
Murrae
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Jmhinkle
Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 02:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks everyone. I am going to check all of the stuff mentioned and then if it persists drop it off with Murrae (proof of how good Santa FE HD is with Buell's and why they got my business over the local dealer). I think the TPS is going to be the culprit, but I'm still very open to suggestions.
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