| Author | Message | ||
     Treadmarks |
I am glad the Uly does not have 150+ horsepower, and I am glad I don't drive like a ••••••• anymore. MIAMI BEACH, Fla. (WSVN) -- Two people are dead and three people are in the hospital after a motorcycle crashed into a car early Friday morning. As a result, police had to close the intersection of 10th Street and Meridian Avenue for seven hours, as they investigated the accident. According to a witness, a man on a motorcycle picked up a woman after work and took off, traveling at a speed of over 100 miles per hour. Upon seeing he was about to be pulled over by police, the driver sped up and fled, crashing into a Ford Taurus at 10th Street and Meridan Avenue. The Suzuki Hayabusa motorcycle T-boned into the car at such a high speed it sent the motorcycle flying three quarters of a block. Because the riders were traveling so fast , the helmets they had on did nothing to save their lives. "He had a need for speed and, unfortunately, that need for speed killed him tonight," said Detective Robert Hernandez of the Miami Beach Police. Police say the 21-year-old driving the motorcycle only had a commercial license, not a motorcycle license. "Right now we know that the driver shouldn't have been on the road. He was driving with a business pupose-only driver's license," said Hernandez, "as well as having had DUI in May of 2006. His motorcycle was also rigged for high speed." All three people from the car were transported to the hospital with minor injuries. The motorcycle driver died on impact and his 19-year-old passenger, whose 20th birthday would have been today, died shortly after arriving at the hospital.  | ||
| Debueller |
Harsh I really feel bad for the real victum here, his passenger. I have a 17 y/o daughter. That shit really freaks me out. Although I love motorcycles, I kind of hopes she dosen't get interested in a guy with a street bike. I kinda feel bad I think that way, I'll admit...... but these stories are very sad. (Message edited by debueller on November 10, 2006) | ||
| Dmcutter |
When I was in the Corps and stationed in Japan way back when (BTW, happy 231st birthday to the USMC, Electraglider, weren't you at Tun Tavern back then?) I had a 400 cc screamer...the Japanese had a tiered license system, up to 250 cc, 251-400, and maybe one or two more. It was very difficult for them to move up in class, very stringent testing such as riding the bike on a balance beam and having to pick it up off the ground from its side, no mean feat for a full dresser. I think that sort of system is actually very smart-most 18 year olds really don't have the discipline to ride an open class crotch rocket intelligently. I know I didn't have the discipline at 46-made it a point to crack 100 mph about every time I had my ZX-10R out on the road (albeit not crowded city streets). | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Dave, Yes, we were tipping a few at Tun to celebrate our glorious ass kicking of the Red Coats. My leatherneck piece saved my butt more than once. | ||
| Xbimmer |
You're not alone Debueller. My "kids" are 23-20-18 and when I consider the stupid stuff I used to do then (and somehow survived) I realize they probably are just as "wise" now as I was then... meaning NOT. They've been sick of hearing my horror stories for years. I know parents who've got that call in the middle of the night from the police. I can't imagine their grief. Tiered motorcycle licensing should be mandated in this country, hell so should European driver's licensing standards. Most "drivers" in this country should be traveling in buses... | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Rider education should be mandatory. How many 40 somethings have received a "Herley" from their wives to stave off the midlife crisis and have no more training than what is contained in the owner's manual? I've got a buddy who received a HD this year. He rode around the neighborhood for a couple of hours and decided he knows all he needs to know. | ||
| Paochow |
I agree on the tiered licensing standards. You won't start your kid out driving a Ferrari Enzo, so why can any 18 yr old kid buy a literbike that matches the supercar in acceleration performance? I'll admit that I speed from time to time, but when I do open it up its in the middle of the desert, not in the middle of the city. Midlife crisis cruiser riders bother me almost as much. Several of the guys at work-first time riders are either on the fence or over it on buying a Harley. I suggested rider classes and even told them to pick up a cheap dirt bike to learn the basics of riding a sliding bike, but most of the time words fall on deaf ears. One guy even told me "I don't want to get a dirtbike because I could fall down and get hurt." | ||
| Warbaby |
"Midlife crisis cruiser riders bother me almost as much." Me too. I like cruisers and, of course, there are some competent cruiser riders here and there but I've seen countless middle aged, wobbling, foot-dragging, never-use-the-front-brake, skull-capped, obnoxiously loud and chromed, cruiser riders wearing $1K of leather. I suppose if you're "cool" enough, you're invincible. | ||
| Daves |
I don't want the tiered lic thing. It would kill the MC industry in the US. How many of those 40 year old people that are starting to ride are going to do that. Yeah, right, they are going to go to all those classes so they can ride a 250cc streetbike. Get real, that isn't going to happen. They will not begin to ride at all. So if you guys that want the tiered lic system( mostly supported by people that would already Grandfather in and not have to start over on a 125,think about that) to do away with about 80% of new riders, go right ahead. Kill the industry in the US. Give us even less power (in the form of votes) to have a say in regulations that affect us. I could "maybe" see it for 16-20 year olds but man that would've sucked when I was 18 and riding a 900Z1 which at the time was one of the fastest bikes ever made. | ||
| Cyclonedon |
NO more new laws! Please!!! Get government OFF our butts now! The driver of the motorcycle was 21 and he killed himself by NOT driving responsibly! | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Daves, Actually, not having some sort of tiered licensing and required rider education will kill the industry. Not directly, but indirectly. Every year, the premiums for insurance increase due to under educated, under skilled riders killing a family of 4 in their mini-van. Every year WE ALL pay more for this option. Nearly every state requires insurance, so we are nearly all under the authority of the insurance companies. Eventually, it will become so expensive to insure a bike that ALL ridership will decrease. I hold dealers partly responsible. I KNOW that you want and need to make the sale, and I know that it is the responsibility of the rider to be able to handle the bike they purchase, but dealers willing to release a 150 HP repli-racer to an 18 year old with NO training are making a buck today at the cost of their livelihood tomorrow. Auto dealerships don't require driver's ed for a purchaser to walk out the door, but the death rates for cars are not anywhere as close as they are for cycles. Rhetorically, how many obviously underskilled riders have you seen leave the floor with a new bike? Did you think to yourself "Man, I hope that guy makes it t his 1,000 mile service!"? A tiered system will actually allow you to sell more bikes not fewer. Imagine that I ultimately want a 1200cc bike, but I have to work from a 500 to 750 to 1000+. I what I want eventually, but I have to buy three bikes to get there. The secondary market will have more supply. More supply means lower prices. Lower prices mean more people who want bikes can get them at the prices they want. Overall, though, the rider in this report had more issues than just his riding skill and judgment. He obviously had self control and judgment issues in life. | ||
| Gtmg |
I would like to say that I think we need just the opposite strategy. Most motorcycle accidents that involve severe injuries are caused by cars. We need to make it easier to get a motorcycle license. I know many will disagree with me but you would be surprised at how many drive without M class licenses now. 1. Make driver education mandatory for new young drivers with a major section about motorcycles. Include several question on the learners test for all drivers about motorcycles. Include a section in the driving test that talks about and or demonstrates the need to be aware. 2. If you have a car license it equals a motorcycle license. More motorcycles on the road = more awareness. Tiered licensing for teens definitely. 3. Support training programs with license fees that increase the quantity of classes and decreases the cost dramatically for motorcyclist. Classes where I live are backlogged for months and still very expensive. The state will only certify a few private training classes - the one run by Harley dealers and runs some of their own. 4. Helmet laws are mandatory just like seat belt laws. Helmets prevent more deaths than any other safety item we wear. I know from experience. Pushing no helmet laws makes us look like a bunch of dumb asses who don't care about safety. Note this accident was in Florida my guess is they were not wearing helmets. I mean real helmets not brain buckets either. Half or full helmet that is minimally certified by DOT. Just my opinion for what it is worth. We need more people riding not less. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
More bad riders = increased insurance risk exposure = higher premiums across the board. It ain't just the quantity, it's got to be about quality of rider as well. | ||
| Fastfxrs |
Hey Daves, while we're at it, why not let people drive tanker trucks without training or appropriate licenses. I've been riding street bikes for over 25 years, starting with a 1963 yamaha 250 twin. I slowly moved up to a 400 Kawi, 550 yamaha,600 honda and so on through a bunch of different harleys to the Buell I'm riding as my main bike now. There was a tiered license system of sorts when I got my endorsement. You could ride a 250cc or smaller with one license and over 250 with the other. I opted to use my buddys 500 to take the test on so I wouldn't have to re-take it. Little did I know that I would be an advocate for life long rider education. I take an experienced Rider course by the MSF every other year. Trying road racing several years ago, I was very humbled and knew what I couldn't do on the street anymore. A young guy at work bought his first street bike this past summer. A brand new Zx 6-R. After "mastering it" in a few weeks, he was convinced he needs a Zx -10 next year as his bike is feeling a little slow. I did my part to talk him out of it-doubt he will listen though. The main thing most motorcyclists lack is skill. More common sense comes with age if we live long enough. A 16 year old on an open class sportbike-or a 600 for that matter, makes no sense to me. But then that's the target audience isn't it? (Message edited by fastfxrs on November 11, 2006) | ||
| Daves |
Ft You and I disagree on this. I think you are wrong. I have been riding for almost all my life and yet my insurance premiums are about what they have always been. Where is the big increase you speak of? Yes, I know younger people pay more than I do. They, statistically, crash more than I do. They also make more per hour than I did when I was 16 so I am not sure they are really paying that much more of their income than I was, way back when. That is kind of strange you ask if I think about them making it back for the 1000 mile service. I had a customer die this past summer on his way to the dealership for his 1000 mile service on his 2005 XB12R that he just had to have. Of course he was 61 years old and had been riding his whole life. Tragic, yes, bikes fault, no. Would a tiered lic have made any difference, no. Let's face it, this is the US(or at least it used to be) I do not need you or anyone else telling me what I can ride. I'll pay my dollar and take my chances. Doesn't matter if I am 18(legal age to make your own decisions) or 43. It's easy for us, to say how new riders are to be treated since we won't have to go thru any of the "new requirements" I think that is BS. I tell new riders all the time. You have to use your head. If you are smart, you could have an 8000 hp bike as your very first bike and be fine. If you choose to be a •••••••, then you are going to get hurt/killed on a moped. And, sometimes it doesn't matter what you are on, you are going to get hurt. I do not sugar coat the dangers of riding, quite the opposite. I stress gear, I stress MSF course and track days. Fastfxrs I do not see the "equity" in comparing a motorcycle with a tanker truck? Am I wrong in figuring that in almost all motorcycle vs car crashes that the rider suffers worse injuries? How about tanker trucks and cars? See what I mean? We should try to get more people into riding at a younger age, that I agree would help the problem. They would feel better about starting on a smaller bike and working their way up like most of us did. I bought my 1st street bike before I even had a lic, I was 14(tiering would'nt have worked there!) it was a 400 Kawasaki triple 2 stroke, I had over 17,000 miles on it before I even had a drivers lic,let alone a motorcycle lic. 4 years later got the Z1. I had been riding mini bikes and then dirt bikes since I was 8. I guess I had terrible parents for letting me do such a life threatening thing. God, I love them! Course that was back when people were responsible for stuff. Had I got caught riding without a lic I would've had to wait til I was 18 to get it. That would've sucked but would've been my fault and my choice. Now it's everyone else job, I guess, to protect idiots from themselves? I don't feel that way, sorry. | ||
| Fastfxrs |
I believe there will always be resistance to license requirements. My dad and brother got pulled over once on their bikes years ago. The cop was checking for MC endorsements. They did'nt know they needed one as was the excuse of a lot of other riders at the time. They both went a took their tests after that( just a written requirement I believe). My point is, people used to drive all kinds of vehicles without the proper licences,including 18 wheelers. My '63 Yamaha served a twin cylinder "enduro" for me when I was 14. I snuck out on the road every chance I could and I'm sure I had several thousand "illegal" highway miles on my bike before I had my endorsement at 16. I'm not saying I agree with tiered licensing or not. Education is the answer as it is for most problems. Inexperienced riders that crash,continue to make all our insurance premiums go up. We all had to start somewhere, but 16 year olds on open class sport bikes, as well as the "mid-life crisis" present to an inexperienced rider from the wife in the form of a road king, makes no sense to me. Tim | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Dave, Stand down. I never said that YOU were responsible for puting a loaded gun into the hands of a baby. You are one of the most conscientious sales people I know. That is why the question was RHETORICAL and plainly stated as such. My previous post made it sound like I was accusing you of selling just to make a buck. What I was thinking didn't come out in type. Sorry. Not all other sales folks are as concerned about what happens to their clients after the sale. You CARE!!!!!! I'm not a big fan of huge government programs, but with respect to the use of automobiles, bikes or tanker trucks, there must be a certain level of ability, training, and skill that is lacking in this country. We have some of the highest accident rates per mile driven than anywhere in the world. Conversely, we have the lowest entry requirements for being a rider/driver of anywhere in the world. I'm in the insurance business. More new inexperienced riders will result in more accidents per mile ridden (or dollar in premium paid). Insurance companies translate that into higher premiums across the spectrum of riders. What I am advocating is better initial training to decrease accidents whereas there is virtually none. Riders many times have NO license at all, no endorsement. Of those new riders who have actually gone through the effort to get their endorsement, many have not completed ANY MSF or other training. I would also like to have additional training required. I seek that training on my own. Many others don't. I don't understand why. I honor the right for people to do as they wish until their actions affect me. Raise my premiums, cause me to get hassled by LEOs, or kill me and my family in our mini-van, and I have a problem with that. Again, Dave, this discussion ISN'T about you. You stand alone. I'm in sales. I've seen some of the worst sales people in the world. I've also seen the best. You would be within the top 1% regardless of the product. If you had doubts about whether a rider could handle the bike you are selling, you would walk away. Others would never allow ethics to get between them and a commission dollar. (Message edited by ft_bstrd on November 11, 2006) | ||
| Ray_r |
Daves - I'm 100% with you. We can't keep making laws to protect against stupidity. Folks have to start taking responsibility for their actions again. Us older folks remember the days when an accident was just that, an accident. It was not a reason to automatically sue someone. I made some dumb choices as a kid too. But fortunately I lived to talk about them, and hopefully teach my own kids not to make the same mistakes. And my house insurance has gone up ALOT more than my auto/bike insurance. Should we stop letting people build/buy houses that are in high risk areas? | ||
| Daves |
Well if they are riding with no lic then they are already breaking the law. New laws won't help there. Requiring them to take classes or whatever will have 0 effect on them. Just as it had 0 effect on me when I was 14. Although I did have to "evade" the local cops a couple times. I still do not agree with the higher premium argument either. I must be really a good boy to have mine not go up? Jeez, I've only had 32 speeding tickets so far. Why, if we have more riders paying premiums would a few more accidents raise everyones rates. Isn't it supposed to be a ratio thing? Isn't that already controlled by some govt regulations? So if we gain 50,000 riders paying premiums and 10% of them crash, the premiums from the other 45,000 paying riders should more than cover it? Just what are the chances of a motorcycle plowing into your minivan and killing you and your family? I think your chances at the lottery are better. You are right that I do care about my customers. FXR, I agree that 16 year olds on open class sportbikes is not a smart choice for them to make. But you see, that is the thing with freedom, you have the choice to make your own decisions, even if they are not good ones. | ||
| Dmcutter |
An interesting result of the tiered licensing system was that the 2 hot classes were the 250 two stroke racer replicas and the 400 street bikes. All the cool midsize bikes we have essentially were bored and stroked domestic model 400s. Small displacement doesn't necessarily mean slow, you know. | ||
| Lowflyer |
I sold shoes at Dillards once. I hated my customers. If they bought a shoe they couldn't handle, I couldn't care less. I once sold a pair of lace-up shoes to a guy with really bad arthritis. I'm with Daves on this one. Licensing is just artificially trying to control natural selection. | ||
| Gtmg |
I am not sure about the motorcycle premium thing either. To be honest with you I think it is BS. You can argue just the opposite that more motorcyclists make the pools larger and keep lower rates depending on experience. We do have very high premiums in the motorcycle industry for full faired sport bikes for the most part. If you talk to the insurance agent the reason why has to do with the laying it down and having to replace expensive plastic. Even with plastic I could have insured any 1200 cc sport bike for a fairly reasonable amount from State Farm. They rate them based on size. For the riders you talk about, mostly middle age cruiser riders, I can tell you that the insurance is incredibly cheap. When I got back into riding 2 years ago I did not have an endorsement and had no problem getting very cheap insurance for my cruiser. I have two cruisers in the back yard as well as my XB12x. Matter of fact my Buell insurance was pretty low. I have not seen a change in the past 15 years really. Motorcycles in reality are very low because they cause very little damage to other vehicles, no medical injuries to others and most people carry very low medical coverage. This creates a situation where very few law suits are created because of motorcycle accidents. If we really wanted to lower motorcycle insurance, there would be requirements written into the policies about wearing proper protective equipment all the time including helmets. Once again more than 50% of motorcycle accidents are caused by cars not motorcycles. We have to have classes to teach us how to avoid cars. We are looking at the problem incorrectly. We need to teach car riders how to watch for motorcycles and other cars. I think for motorcycle safety to improve we need more riders and need to make the entry requirements very low. Awareness = safety. You are alway going to have the dumb*** who rides to fast and runs away from the police. Happens in cars as well. | ||
| Krassh |
Want to get more people involved in Motorcycles and get the 4 Wheeled motoring public more aware of Motorcyclists? Make all new potential 4 wheeled drivers get licensed and ride motorcycles for 2 years before they can get behind the wheel of a car, bet they have a new respect for motorcyclists when they are done. That or it will weed out the really stupid people that all our laws are keeping alive. | ||
| Fastfxrs |
Yes Gtmg, we do need to have classes to teach us how to avoid cars. Many motorcyclists forget how to make split second brake/swerve manuvers. Taking classes often and practicing this skills on a regular basis helps keep us alive longer. We are always going to be invisible to a certain segment of the cagers (laptop computer/cell phone/latte drinking distractions). I could'nt believe how few insurance companies ofter decent discounts for completing a motorcycle safety course. My Insurance is pretty reasonable, especially for my Harley, but I really had to shop around for the Uly. I'm doing my part a better rider by choice. A lot of people don't think its that important. | ||
| Gtmg |
I think the classes are great but access is poor. They are costly for a lot of people over $300.00. That definitely eliminates many younger riders right there taking the course. The industry and the insurance industry needs to subsidize the cost of these classes. They completely subsidize classes for ATV's because of lawsuits. We also need more classes and competition on who gives these classes. Certain states limit private entities from giving the classes to only "certified" operators that have to jump through extreme hoops to get this certification. Still think a motorcycle license has to be easier to get. More drives = more awareness. I can tell in our circle of friends that do not ride they are more aware because of us. We need to help ourselves by not resisting helmet laws as a matter of fact we need to encourage them to help limit major injuries as much as possible. If you read through the article above there is no mention of helmets. Guess what like I said before Florida is a no helmet state. | ||
| Darrell_ks |
I would love to see industry and enthusiasts (ie you and me) support a full MSF type training class that ran concurrent with the High School Drivers Education programs. I personally would donate $300 a year to cover the cost of one of the students. For most of the cagers out there, training will never happen because of their dislike/distrust of motorcycles. But if we could start teaching young people to ride the same time that they are learning to drive, I believe that the increased awareness of motorcycles would help decrease the car vs motorcycle accidents. Tiered Licensing can sound like a good idea, but in several of the high profile accidents and deaths, the rider has no Motorcycle Endorsement at all. | ||
| Windrider |
I started riding motorcycles when I was 5. I still think that this was a very good thing and I thank my parents for it. Motorcycles were tools on the farm. We did things with them that would make MSF posters of what not to do... like carrying pitchforks, shovels, and many other life threatening tools and objects in creative and wonderful ways that would make litigation lawyers stand up and applaud. On motorcycles, as in life, we should all be allowed to make our choices AND ACCEPT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF CHOICES THAT GO WRONG. I have to side with DaveS on this one: We are still in America and should be able to make our own choices without Big Govt telling us what is safe or proper. With Freedom comes responsibility. Many want the former but not the latter. |
