| Author | Message | ||
     Chrisw |
just to report uly since nov05- uk to france 2 weeks hols 2 up 45 degrees heat ,bike ran fine, yes fan did work alot. next trip 2 days ride to czech gp and 2 days back all on motorway. 2 up with boxes and tankbag - no water let in. now done 8600 miles - and feeling that it is now run in well. using mobil1 - iriduim plugs,k&n, micron with wrapped headers and that white wire removed from ecu connector block. excellent bike and keeps up with other bikes very well. chris uk,thanks erik | ||
| Birdmanrh |
White wire removed from ECU connector block? What's that about? | ||
| Rubberdown |
I think it's a Euro thing.....not sure what. | ||
| Davo |
#8 on vehicle speed sensor | ||
| Stretch67 |
What does this do for you? | ||
| Davo |
I don't know.......yet. There is no schematic for the ECM The wire comes off the VSS and splits to the speedo cluster and to the ECM. I am wondering if disconnecting it might stop "closed loop fuel". (pure speculation because I know it is rpm sensitive but there may be another variable) There is no trouble code for the VSS so there should be no trouble, if it runs without it hooked to the ECM. I will let you know after some testing. | ||
| Davo |
Still on the VSS trail: http://www.sporttwin.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=1553.html quote "CLOSED LOOP Cruising between 40 - 60 mph at operating temp. (1500 to 3500 rpm)" Interesting the manual gives four specific values for testing the VSS: 2o mph-531Hz 40mph-1062Hz 60mph-1593Hz 80mph-2124Hz The 40 and 60 values come up again! I think Chrisw has found something!!! What do you know about this, Chrisw? (Message edited by davo on September 06, 2006) | ||
| Stretch67 |
I read the article in your link. From this article, it seems that the Closed Loop is the ECM's way of leaning the mixture out when the engine doesn't need to produce max power (when cruising between 40 and 60), probably to increase mpg and satisfy EPA smog requirements. From what I could gather with my lackluster comprehension skills, the Closed Loop allows the ECM to "learn" the current running conditions, based on the input of the O2 sensor (and others). Theory: Disconnecting the white wire makes the ECM revert back to the Open Loop, which is essentially running the engine only off of the factory-programmed map, eliminating the lean-running condition while cruising. Since the Open Loop is used for cold engine start, warm-up, accelerating, and decelerating, would one assume that keeping the engine on the Open Loop would cause it to run richer (cooler and with more power). So, is pulling the white wire a way to trick the ECM into thinking the engine is never 'cruising', causing it to maintain the richer mixture at all times and in all conditions? (Message edited by stretch67 on September 07, 2006) | ||
| Davo |
Pure speculation on my part: Richer, only if the AFV is "less than 100" after the ECM had been prompted that the last AFV was lean, "greater than 100", and the ECM is now compensating for that lean condition, by making it richer, and is unable to learn, execute and correct based on newer information about its previous richer correction because the ECM never has the opportunity to go back to a closed loop and learn. The ECM can’t go back to closed loop because even if the RPM is in the closed loop range the VSS value is never high enough to allow closed loop operation again because the white wire got X’d at the box. That is if the ECM needs a 40 mph prompt and have rpm between 2500-3500. Please wait for some data to support this theory. If the engine is unable to correct for a dynamic lean condition instead of a theoretically intended rich condition you are going to torch your engine!!! The purpose of this post is to stimulate discussion regarding the operation of the EFI-VDO system, for future dyno runs and closed course activities. (Message edited by davo on September 07, 2006) (Message edited by davo on September 07, 2006) | ||
| Chrisw |
after doing this mod at 1000 miles, it appears to improve things and having now done some 8600 miles. i am interested to hear what tests/theory shows up. | ||
| Davo |
Thanks Chrisw but let me clarify that the white wire that you are referring to goes to pin #8 in the large gray connector at the ECM and not the single pin with a white wire which is located between the black and gray connector at the ECM. If it is the pin 8 wire then where did you learn about the mod? | ||
| Davo |
First step completed. I removed pin #8 from the gray connector and the engine idles fine and there is no error code or engine light prompt. I will do an AFV reset and do a test run with it this weekend. I am concerned because my AFV is running between 92-100. I suspect that the ECM is trying to compensate for my late timing. I do not want the ECM to make continual adjustments to lean out the situation during my induced perpetual open loop test run. | ||
| Stretch67 |
The plot thickens. Thanks, Dave. | ||
| Davo |
I went for a test run with pin 8 disconnected. Prior to the run I reset the AFV. The engine seemed a little down on power so I advanced the timing 3 degrees. After another test run the power was back. Upon arriving back at the garage, I checked the AFV and it was still 100! I will do some more tests tomorrow and post the results. | ||
| Aeholton |
Great information. Thanks for posting. Keep us informed. | ||
| Davo |
FYI- my timing is now at TDC (zero) at hot(>230 F) idle. It was about 3 ATDC. The stock dynamic setting is about 7 BTDC at hot idle. | ||
| Opto |
The VSS is disconnected at the factory for some export models, at least the OZ ones, if my memory is right. Davo, must be real neat to be able to read the AFV. If you are trying to keep the engine from varying the AFV try disconnecting the 02 sensor. If you want max AFV maybe wait for a cold day with high ambient pressure and run the engine in the lower rpm range (say 2800 or 3000) to reset the AFV to the highest possible, then disconnect the 02. I don't know if disconnecting the 02 will stabilize the AFV or not but it's the only thing I can think of, and until very recently it has not been possible to measure the AFV without the scanalyzer. The reason I say to reset the AFV at lower rpms is that the 02 sensor output voltage increases between 3k and 4k rpm for the same AFR, I know this from my MS setup (proly because the sensor runs hotter at 4k). Slightly lower voltage at lower revs (lean) may help the ecm to correct the AFV to a slightly richer value (if that's what you want). Just food for thought. | ||
| Davo |
Opto, Thanks for the info about the VSS. I agree 100% with your procedure and you were reading my mind as to the direction this thing was going. I was thinking of running my timing extremely advanced and just ease along at about 45 mph for 15 minutes then park it check and see how high I got the AFV then pull the VSS, re-adjust the timing and go! The key is to get a high AFV reading then pull the plug. I am going to do some more testing tonight! | ||
| Davo |
I have been unable to get the AFV to change from 100 even with the VSS re-connected. So now I am back to square 1. I need to confirm that the AFV changes with the wire connected and test again under the same conditions and see if the AFV changes with the wire disconnected. Opto, What is the destination for OZ bikes? Is it Australia? What is the standard speed limit there for the average highway? Could it be 90 kph? In my opinion VSS has to alter closed loop activity, learn mode or both. I need to continue to test in order to verify this premature conclusion. | ||
| Davo |
Still no change in the AFV with the removal of pin #8 or not. There is a noticeable difference in the surging of the engine at 60 mph. I had thought the surging was unique to 3000 rpm but now I think it may be related to the 60 mph mark regardless of whether it is in 4th or 5th gear. 3rd gear and lower are free of surging. I think it is due to the high rpm associated with the speed of 60 mph. If this is the case then the VSS does have some influence regarding closed loop operation. This is pure speculation. I need more time for testing in a more controlled condition. | ||
| Davo |
Section 7.20, page 7-60 of the ULy official factory manual states under general area regarding the testing of the speedo: "the tester generates a simulated speedometer sensor signal. The signal aids in determining whether speedometer replacement is necessary. It can also be used to simulate running engine conditions for ignition system troubleshooting." I realize there is nothing stated about fuel but the fueling system and the ignition system are closely related as they are both triggered by the same sensor, the CPS. The goose chase continues. | ||
| Davo |
A correction is needed for my post above. The timing on my bike is set at TDC/zero at hot idle. That is a minimum of 307 F not 230F ! There is more advance at 230 F. I apologize for the error! | ||
| Opto |
Davo, I forgot to mention the VSS wire is disconnected on 04XB models, the 06 ecm's may be different. I am away at the moment and cannot check my Uly wiring. In the link that got posted re DDFI it stated that 2 to 3 mins at the right revs with no decellerations or other stuff, and with engine up to temp that the AFV would reset (if it needed to) I found that interesting. Yes OZ is Australia, the limit is 100 kph. I'm keen to know if disconnecting the 02 sensor will stop the AFV changing, but I will find out soon enough when I take the Lightning for a couple more rides. | ||
| Davo |
Opto, Thanks again. THe information on AFV reset is very helpful. I am not sure why I can not get the AFV to change from 100. I just downloaded a update from TR and I was wondering if there might be a problem with the update. After about 2 minutes of idling, the AFV changes from 100 and starts to makes numerous real time changes. The values are 100-109 and the AFV graph follows the spark advance graph. The two are very similar. My challenge is that I do not have a dyno. (I am working on that this winter) The tests that I perform in the garage have no VSS and the engine is not under load. I have to put a laptop computer on board and use a test circuit. If I can get the AFV to change and be able to control that variable then we will be in high cotton. | ||
| Aeholton |
Davo, thanks for all your effort. I will continue to watch this thread with great interest. | ||
| Davo |
Opto, Do you agree that there should be a third variable to fueling other than RPM and TPS when it comes to the issue of load? For example, you can have a TPS of 10 and 3000 RPM during decel, during no load revs, or during down hill cruise. Without a MAP sensor the engine can not detect load vs. no load. Since there is no manifold vacuum sensor it is reasonable to me that a "speed" variable is needed to isolate the three conditions that I listed above. What are your thoughts on the "third variable"? Anyone else feel free to chime in. Anonymous clues are welcome too. | ||
| Davo |
Opto, Some info on O2 and AFV: With all other connections made to the ECM except for the O2 (V/GY) on pin 4 of (gray 11A). This is what I observed with the engine running. (O2 disconnected) 1. The AFV stayed on 100 and never changed. 2. w/o turning the engine off I connected the O2 and the AFV changed constantly with real time values. ( sometimes a change each second or two) 3. If I disconnected the O2 with the engine running, every time except one time the AFV counted down to 85 and stayed there. One time it went to 86.5 and stopped. 4. Then I turned off the key and the ignition and left the O2 wire disconnected. I restarted the engine and the the AFV read 100 and stayed there until I plugged the O2 back in to the ECM. Now if I can get the AFV to change I will see if it holds the new value with the O2 disconnected. I am curious to see if it will run home to Momma, 100. By the way there were no engine light issues and there were no DTC's (codes) (Message edited by davo on September 11, 2006) (Message edited by davo on September 11, 2006) | ||
| Davo |
Opto, I got an idea. Assuming that the AFV stays put at any value after the VSS is disconnected prior to the first starting sequence, then all we need to do is monitor the relationship between O2 voltage and AFV. After this relationship is determined, we should be able to disconnect the O2 and install a variable resister and set it to the desired read out and operate the engine until the AFV changes to our desired value, then turn off the engine and X the VSS wire. Then we have a AFV that could be used for closed course activities. section 4.17 page 4-47: low voltage signal <.41V = running lean high voltage signal >.56V = running rich ideal A/F mixture of 14.7 to 1 = .48V I wonder if AFV 100 = .48V? Will know soon. (Message edited by davo on September 11, 2006) | ||
| Opto |
Davo, >the AFV graph follows the spark advance graph What does this mean, can you read the spark advance with the TR software? I don't think there should be a 3rd variable for load, as far as I can see the tps is the load factor, open the throttle and you have load. The three conditions you state are all low or no load. During decel it doesn't matter much how much fuel you give the motor as it isn't producing power, so giving it as little as possible saves fuel. With the g/box in neutral and you set the tps to 10 the engine will rev to x rpm and stabilize, this is not a common operating condition. In a downhill cruise situation the throttle is barely cracked open to maintain speed. I know you suggested those examples just to illustrate a point and I know what you are saying but I haven't found a combination of tps and rpm on the fuel map that I can't nail down to a repeatable AFR, so I don't think a 3rd variable is needed. It's interesting tuning an alpha-n (tps) bike from scratch, as only around half the boxes in the fuel map (say 12 x 12) ever get used. For example you're not going to hold the throttle open wide at real low revs or in neutral, and some of the smaller throttle openings will not get the engine anywhere near redline if you are riding along. In the latter case you end up having half a row of boxes that will never get used for accel but will get used for decel when you're coming down from higher revs/bigger throttle openings. You sort of end up with different areas on the map for accel, cruise and decel. WOT is the easiest to tune, it's just one row at the top. That's interesting the results of connecting and disconnecting the 02 sensor. I've heard and seen that with 02 disconnected you may or may not get a trouble code. The behaviour you describe with the AFV varying in real time at idle indicates that it is a real-time 02 correction factor, and that it changes all the time as you ride in closed loop. But the ecm needs a fixed-value AFV value for when it operates in open loop, and that fixed value is in memory, and is adjusted only when the conditions are right to say "adopt this new AFV value for open loop because today we hung around this new AFV number most of the time in closed loop on the highway under steady conditions". Get it? Wow, this is new to me. I found when I was running LED's from the stock 02 sensor that closed loop operation is used a lot more than everything I've read. Closed loop at idle after about 2 mins, and closed loop up to 90mph at steady throttle was what I found. I don't think that open loop always happens over 4k rpm either. x amount of throttle opening seemed to be a more common denominator for entering open loop. >I wonder if AFV 100 = .48V? I don't know, maybe AFV "x" = 0.48V, where "x" is the AFV for your particular bike when the 02 returns 0.48V most of the time in closed loop? As soon as you change the exhaust for instance I would think the AFV would increase if that exhaust made the engine breath better in the closed loop operating range. As far as spoofing the 02 sensor goes I've not been there, but now that you can read the AFV it has suddenly got a lot easier to test anything you might want to try. If you want to set the AFV to suit closed course activities it would be good to get a wideband 02 sensor so you can measure AFR, the Innovate LC-1 controller is about $200, then you need a display, a cheap LCD voltmeter will do that. Without AFR readings you won't know what's going on with the fuelling of the engine. The wideband is like the entrance fee for tuning, it is a tuning tool, I think of it as an addition to the toolbox. It's the only way you'll know what AFV corresponds to what AFR at WOT or cruise. Thanks for the testing you are doing, no-one has monitored AFV before (except for in-house techs with the gear - and they don't share much). | ||
| Davo |
Opto, Thanks again for the reply and all of the info. I will be in the garage tonight again. I need some time to try to get the AFV to re-calibrate. I have a friend with an xb12 and we are going to check AFV and timing and make some comparisons with the Uly. As for the spark timing, I can run separate rear and front spark advance graphs in parallel with TPS, RPM, ET,and AFV graphs in real time. There is are provisions for many more input variables. If you know someone with the TR-VDSTS software I can send you my log files. I have TR's VDSTS-Pro-USA. Thanks again. Got to run the Sun is high in the sky here in Virginia and I got to "make some hay while the Sun shines". (Message edited by davo on September 12, 2006) |
