| Author | Message | ||
     Teeps |
In the interest of Semi-science, Xbimmer offered to let me use his right side scoop for an UNBIASED comparison between the stock right scoop (such as it is) and the -Big Air- right scoop, that he purchased from a fellow Badweb'r. Here are my semi-scientific observations: The test run(12.5 Mi.)is one I have ridden many times and mostly skirts the Pacific coast (.5 Mi. or closer to the drink) in Palos Verdes, CA. With the stock scoop the fan came on at about 7 miles (typical) into the ride. At 12.5 miles I stopped and checked cylinder and head temperatures using a point and shoot infrared thermometer. Stock Scoop: front cylinder at base = 247f rear cylinder at base = 268f front head = 318f rear head = 270f same test run with Big Air scoop: front cylinder at base = 241f rear cylinder at base = 243f front head = 3336f rear head = 298f With the Big Air Scoop the fan did not come on at the usual 7 mile mark, nor was it on when I stopped at 12.5 Mi. After taking the temperatures (today) with the Big Air Scoop, I continued the ride around P.V. At P.V. Drive East I went up the switch backs to the top of the hill about 1500 ft. elevation. The fan was still not on after about 4 miles of constant climbing. This is good! Understand the above is in no way an engineering study. And, there are many variables that were not considered. To do it right would take more equipment and time than I have or am able to invest. My conclusion: The Right Side Scoop is no a placebo, it works. | ||
| Stevenknapp |
Head temps are HIGHER with the scoop? | ||
| Jmhinkle |
Was this a back to back run meaning the first ride was from cold and second was immediately following it after the daytime temps had possibly gone up? Also, what is the badwebber's name that makes those? The search feature returns a zillion hits and I can't find his name. | ||
| Anonymous |
Teeps is headed in the right direction, actually getting data, and yes the head temps go up. When it's very hot out, (Arizona summer, etc), they get very hot. That's why we don't put a big right side scoop on at the factory. The right side scoop basically stalls some of the air flow across the heads by reducing the low pressure behind them. This causes head temps, then fuel temps to go up, causing real fueling issues at high temps. That's the reality of it. Now if you ride in areas that the temps don't get too high, then the right scoop won't be a problem. We have to make the best all-around configuration however. And if you want to install the 40 thermocouples and massive data logger, and then go run in every environmental condition, then you can have all the data we have too! | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Is that Errrrrriiiiiikkkkkkk???????? | ||
| Davo |
Anonymous, Thanks for the information. If you have time how about visiting the pinging thread. We need some information there too! | ||
| Snowscum |
I second that Anonymous. Please enlighten us on the pinging Thread! Mine was pinging away again today. I would think having that scoop would trap heat from the pipes and create air dam to the rear cylinder. | ||
| Xbimmer |
Teeps, did you do the runs Sunday? That was one nice day, everyone at the Rock Store was talking about it. After the heat waves we've had here inland it was a welcome break. After I left the scoop with you it was business as usual, fan running more than it had been. I was concerned that you might not get some really hot weather to test in this week. But come Monday it was back. AFRICA HOT! I'm on vacation this week and even riding around town that fan is constantly screaming its way to its demise. I get stares at the dealer when I point out another soon-to-be warranty replacement. The bearing is noticeably louder than before. If I didn't love this bike so much I'd just happily ride fans to their death for the next 1.5 years while Buell warranties them, then get rid of it. Anonymous, with all those thermocouples hanging off in AZ, and I'm assuming while testing a factory r/s scoop, while recording any higher head temps I'm also assuming less fan cycling occurrence as what occurs with the aftermarket pieces. Pivotal Q, IMHO, which could lay to rest another contested thread recently. If the fan is cycling less or not at all, but the head temps are higher with a r/s scoop, how come? Anonymous, if you are Erik Buell, my hat is off to you and your achievements. | ||
| Blake |
Very interesting. | ||
| Mb182 |
If the sensor is in the head and you have higher temps then why less fan?? I don't think 12.5 miles is enough to test.. Do 30 from a cold motor on the same roads and let see.. MB | ||
| Birdmanrh |
Gee, how about that. It fakes the fan into turning off, but the head temps go up...... | ||
| Xbimmer |
Mb182, exactly the point of my last question. Someone with more privileged info should be able to explain how I can run 5, 12.5, 30, 60, 120+ miles in various environments with my fan running less than without the scoop. Since Teeps was only using a point-and-shoot sensing device is it POSSIBLE that fins he was aiming at were extracting heat from the core source much more rapidly than stock-cooled fins? Is it POSSIBLE that when he took a measurement with no airflow the reading was higher? Remember where Buell decided to locate the sensor: where it mattered most. If it ain't turning on the fan than it ain't getting hot enough... cooling fins are just the pathway out for heat. I'm only preaching to the choir here. Teeps, if you want the scoop for another week great. I'll be at the Rock Store Sat/Sun if you want to return it! | ||
| Xbimmer |
Yeah Birdmanrh...you are the guy I was referencing... Careful though bro, you're stating a fact that it "fakes" the fan, jury's especially still out on that one!  Maybe some insiders can shed some light on any r/s scoop non-r/s scoop head temp sensor info. | ||
| Opto |
I can datalog the reading direct off the rear cyl head temp sensor, if someone wants to lend me one for a week in Australia. You guys over there could measure the voltage from the said head temp sensor with a multimeter strapped to the air box lid, would give real A/B comparisons. I think there's only one RHS air scoop in Oz so my chances of getting one to test are very slim! My fans run all the time, so I just got used to it, it's worth it. | ||
| 12x_infatuation |
mine goes most of the time too even in the cold tho only almost broke in. I read here somewhere that kill switchin' the motor briefly turns the fan off. I tried it 3 or 4 times during a 330 km trip through bitumen, gravel, 4wd track, almost goat track & usually after doing this the fan would only come on after turning the bike off at a stop off. Does anyone know if this is detrimental? Nothing unusual with mine, the bike cranks! i reckon it could tow a loaded horse float! | ||
| Aeholton |
Teeps, thanks for your effort. I assume the fan was running when you took the factory configuration readings. If that is true, I'm wondering if that skewed the reading as you were pulling cool air across the fins during the reading. If you decide to test it further, maybe you can figure out a way to quickly turn off the fan when you stop to take the reading. | ||
| Teeps |
First off: Thanks to Xbimmer for loaning me his scoop for this test. Especially since he doesn't know me from Adam, other than through this news group and a face to face meeting at the Rock Store. Guess I make an impression on people... ;-0 Second: This was a SEMI-Scientific test. Meaning you get what I gave you. I'm not going to do longer rides, for the reasons I stated above. I'm satisfied with the observations I made. Now to answer a couple of questions: Tests were run on Tuesday (stock configuration) and Wednesday (Big Air Scoop) afternoons; starting at 3:00pm PST. Tests were run from cold (ambient) 80F. +/- 5F. Both tests were taken with the engine idling and the fan off. I did this as quickly as I could to minimize heat soak after stopping. (I did have to stop the engine and restart it to make the fan stay off for the first test.) Second test, fan was not on. Mr. Anonymous, I fully understand having to make the best compromise, especially when it comes to the EPA rules. Bottom line, other than fueling problems in extreme high ambient temperatures. Do you think we are going to cook our engines using the Big Air Scoop? Mr.Anonymous, Since you seem to know stuff (I don't care how, or who you know) I have a question. How does the ET sensor work? Is it a contact sensor? Can air blowing over the (exposed) part of the sensor not screwed into the head affect the reading? (Message edited by teeps on August 31, 2006) | ||
| Aeholton |
Thanks Xbimmer for letting Teeps use your scoop. Teeps, thanks for the clarification (the fan not running for both readings). I think you ask some very good and valid questions. It would be nice if "Anonymous" could answer them for you (us). | ||
| Birdmanrh |
I have to love how someone with no name instantly has more credibility than anyone else. If you guys have such superior knowledge of fluid dynamics and thermal management you should build some bikes and see how you do. Until then I will simply stick to what I do and get paid to do it. xbimmer, you referenced a thread, not a guy. And I am not worried about being harmed from my statements in that or this thread. Even when you get data that shows you what I stated you will still try to change my stated opinion. I never said it did not make the fan run less, in fact I said it did, but asked "At What Cost." By this test the "Cost" is higher head temps. If that is what you want you have been successful. Me, I will stick with the design made by guys with a lot more knowledge and DATA! | ||
| Jerseyguy |
A couple of years ago I personally lamented to Erik that I was trying to out think his guys on a number of items and that it wasn't easy. I was working on the preliminary design of the Durmmer SS at the time. His response to me was that it's hard to beat a group of dedicated engineers who come to work and do this every single day. He was right. The right side scoop is a prime example of something that sounds like a great idea but when due engineering diligence is performed, it turns out to have a downside as well. The only design "wiggle room" that I see us having is that EPA enforcement isn't watching aftermarket usage as closely as they'd like to - at least not yet. | ||
| Birdmanrh |
The EPA does not really have field level enforcement that would seriously come into play. I would think that the EPA laws would only be used as a way to enforce noise restrictions. Once a police force figures that out and decides to enforce it will there be an issue. I am willing to bet that someone at Buell right now it looking a different vendors for a different fan. Buell does not build fans, they build bikes. I am also willing to bet that once they find a better fan we will see a happy resolution to this issue. The fact that they are waiting for the fan to break and not just sound bad gives my the idea that a replacement is coming down the road. Of course then what will people complain about? | ||
| Stevenknapp |
And if you want to install the 40 thermocouples and massive data logger, and then go run in every environmental condition, then you can have all the data we have too! I do, where do I send my resume?  I worked in the automotive side of EFI, part of my job was R&D for the tools for calibration. It's amazing how much research and data go into something that seems so simple. Cost is always an issue, but that aside, I think it's often hard to improve on OEM. | ||
| Birdmanrh |
http://www.jobsearch.org/seeker/jobsearch/quick?action=JobSearchViewJob&JobSearch_JobId=33176096&JobSearchType=JobSearch Now......don't think too hard..... (Message edited by BirdmanRH on August 31, 2006) | ||
| Teeps |
I've said it before, the whole fan issue is a market quality problem. If the fan was quieter; this would be a non-issue. | ||
| Stevenknapp |
Test rider, nah, looking for engineering. The H-D site has listings, but most often are mechanical, and not Buell. | ||
| Blake |
I'm very curious as to why when traveling down the road toggling the kill switch will stop the fan from running for some significant time interval. I'm curious as to why shutting the engine down then restarting it will prevent the fan from running. I think this is due to two different threshold/activation temperatures for engine off (no oil circulation), versus engine running conditions. This to to prevent cooking of stagnant oil in the cylinder head during heat soaking (combustion chamber heat migrating/flowing to cylinder head mechanicals) after engine shutdown (no circulation of oil). I'm curious as to why, though the rear head temperature taken was higher with the right side scoop, the fan did not turn on upon initial engine shut-down. Which leads me to the following question: Teeps. Where precisely did you measure cylinder head temperature? | ||
| Birdmanrh |
Blake, It is because you cause the computer to recalculate what is going on. You "trick" it into a startup sequence and until it gets data it understands it suspends all the operations that are secondary in nature. But hey, it works....right?  And Teeps, you are correct, if is was quieter or did not have a bearing rattle it would be a non issue. | ||
| Whodom |
On the Uly fan issue, it seems that there have been at least 10X the fan complaints about noise with Uly owners that there ever were with earlier XB's and far more failures reported here. Have any of you Uly owners compared the fan noise on non-Uly XB's? Is this a perception issue or are the Uly fans really louder/harsher? Does the Uly use a different P/N fan from previous XB's? If so, why? Does something about the Uly subject the fan to harsher conditions than previous XB's? (I can't really see how.) It would be interesting exercise to find out the specifications on the Ulysses cooling fan- the physical dimensions of the unit and ideally the fan system curve (flow vs. pressure) and see if there are any better off-the-shelf fans that could be substituted. Maybe a MIL-SPEC electronics cooling fan or something similar? | ||
| Chadhargis |
I think this really says it all. I'm not arguing the results of the scoop, just it's necessity. My bike gets warm, the fan comes on and seldom cuts off on a ride. Does this hurt anything? Most likely it doesn't. Since I don't have an engineering degree, I'm going to leave this up to the folks who's paycheck says "Buell" on it and enjoy hearing my fan run. | ||
| Birdmanrh |
Whodom, I have been on several rides with 10 or more other XB's and no one has ever said, "Boy, your fan runs a lot." And my bike did not run longer than any of their's after we stopped. In fact a comment was made that when everyone stopped the fan went from high speed to low speed at the same time. Of course, I had the same question you had about comparing a LONG time ago....no one ever answered. |
