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Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 04:11 pm: | 
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I always thought the shear was for the gears. Gears on this baby are separate from the rest of the engine. I don't profess to be any oil guru but I just won't pay for unnecessary extras. Tell me why I need gear box shear protection outside the gear box? |
Brucelee
| | Posted on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 04:57 pm: |
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Different shear factor. This has to do with the tendency of an oil to "shear" down in viscosity as it is subjected to extreme heat.
After a short while in a air cooled engine, normal DINO oil shears down significantly, say from a 50wt to a 35wt.
A 40 wt might get down to 25.
With a top quality syn, the shearing and vis loss is minimal at worst. |
M2nc
| | Posted on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 07:19 pm: |
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I rode with 1313 to Wisconsin from North Carolina when his S2 turned over 100,000 miles(See picture in Tales Section Homecoming 2005). My relatively new M2 was approaching 40,000 miles then. I rode with him to Cincinnati and then turned back.
As far as for the M2 my bike is still running strong. I am suprized that it is a tad faster than the Uly but that is about right since the M2 has an Force Winder intake and V&H exhaust. Its only major problems are seal leaks and finding false neutrals while shifting. I helped the leaks along when I plugged up the vent lines during a modification and ended up pushing motor oil up the clutch cable. As far as for the false neutrals, during normal street use it does fine, but at the drag strip I have to be purposeful with the shifting to make sure it shifts between second and three (One reason I love the Uly). The bike runs great and is still the best starting bike I have ever owned (yes even better than the Uly). I have no doubt that with proper care the bike will make 100,000 miles before any major rebuilds.
As far as the Uly, it is approaching 11,000 miles and no major issues. The motor has finally broken in and it is getting better gas mileage than ever. I an switching to synthetic oil not for motor protection but to see if it truly runs cooler so less fan noise. I expect to hit 15,000 miles before October 1st when it turns a year old. I have two major trips planned with it and I ride it to work just about every day. |
Xbimmer
| | Posted on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 09:47 pm: |
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I'm no oil guru either, but I thought shear was something different.
It is my understanding that motor oil when healthy has a molecular attraction to the lubed metals, essentially clinging to the parts. As these parts move past each other, crankshaft bearings and journals for instance, shear occurs at that point between those oil-protected parts as the oil films move past each other also in different directions. This generates friction in the oil, and since if the oil is healthy the metals don't contact each other, a lower quality or broken down oil can't hold up against the shearing action and eventually metal makes contact with metal.
Maybe I'm full of it but that is my understanding of oil shear, and why I believe the best oil for aircooleds is a good synthetic. I changed to Syn3 at my 1k service. On my recent trip I put over 2k on the bike in the hottest ten days I've ever ridden, used less than a quart so that's good news to me. I've got a gallon of M1 V-twin in the garage though, since it is available around here I'll be starting to use it in the Buell. I'd use it in my Beemer but the last time I used a full syn in it every seal from the crank down started puking it out!
What does anybody think about Valvoline SynPower? Stays clean clean clean forever in my daughter's Saturn, and it's one of a very few synthetics approved for use by VW/Audi for their turbo'd engines. We use it in my other daughter's Audi since the also approved M1 is almost impossible to find in the factory-approved weight.
Stories of 100k Buells make me happy.  |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 10:32 pm: |
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Brucelee,
How do you compare the shears? What is it on the spec sheet that refers to shear rating?? I want to learn.
I believe in full synthetics. No argument there from me. I put it in our Prius and all our motorcycles. |
Brucelee
| | Posted on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 11:10 pm: |
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"High-temperature high-shear-rate (HTHS) viscosity is an indicator of a motor oil's resistance to flow in the narrow spaces between rapidly moving parts in fully warmed up engines. The most common test here is ASTM D 4683, which simulates the conditions found in an engine's crankshaft and connecting rod bearings, as well as other narrow regions. This measurement has important implications for such factors as engine fuel economy, valvetrain wear and bearing protection."
Usually you can find the HTHS number on the company web site under Product specs.
As an example, the HTHS for Red Line 20W-50 is 6.1 (that is the highest I have yet to find).
The HTHS for an average dino 20W-50 is about 3.7. |
Xbimmer
| | Posted on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 11:24 pm: |
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Well, there you go Brucelee. Your response to E-glider validates my understanding of how and why oil works in engines. Thanks! |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 12:20 pm: |
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What would happen if you mixed in some gear lube to the oil to increase the shear?
Any ideas. No I haven't tried this...yet. |
Stevem123
| | Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 05:42 pm: |
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I'm still not sold on synthetics because I've had great results just running the HD dino oil. I do change it regularly and if I have a particularly hot event then I change early. Much cheaper than the syn stuff.
So if the shear number is high, then what does that actually mean in terms of flow? Our engines rely on good flow to cool the pistons with a spray of oil coming up through the connecting rods to the wrist pins and spraying on the bottoms of the pistons. Our oil pumps are designed for high flow more than high pressure. Pressure is actually lower than I thought it would be but that is a byproduct of a high flow system. The roller bearings on the crank also need high flow to properly cool them and I don't really buy the thought of them flattening out due to the slickness of synthetics. For me it's more a cost factor than anything else because I like clean oil so I change often anyways no matter what oil I may be using.
BC Steve |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 05:55 pm: |
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Synthetic oil is supposed to guard against dry engine startups because it clings to metal. Dino oil is not able to do this as well from what I've read and been told. |
Whodom
| | Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 06:00 pm: |
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The main advantage of synthetic oil is that it maintains its original properties for a longer time and under harsher conditions.
If you guys REALLY want to know about oil, spend some time at http://www.bobistheoilguy.com
They have some great articles as well as excellent forums (including one just for motorcycle lubrication). You can learn a lot by reading the posts of UOA's (used oil analyses) from various oils in various vehicles. |
Buellgrrrl
| | Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 10:45 pm: |
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Question 1) Given that my 1203 cc. Buell motor has roller bearings on the lower end (long wearing) but an over 100 millimeter stroke (high piston speed), wouldn't the rings wear out long before the bottom end?
Question 2) I've had excellent results using Castrol 5W-50 synthetic in BMW airheads. This includes parade duty with a sidecar where oil temps sometimes reach 300 degrees F.. Would this be a good oil to use in my Buell?
thanks in advance |
Crusty
| | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2006 - 04:54 am: |
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Don't feed the troll. |
Lorazepam
| | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2006 - 08:20 am: |
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Buellgrrl, if the oil in the engine is kept at proper levels, and the engine is working as it should, there is no reason the rings should wear out first.
I ran 5w50 syn in my Oilheads in the winter with no bad effects. It should work in your Buell as well. |
Xbimmer
| | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2006 - 08:44 am: |
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Found the floppy with the VW/Audi oil chart, I'll try to figure a way to post it.
Seems to me an oil approved for protection in their turbocharged engines should be more than good enough for an air/oil/fan-cooled V twin.
Like I mentioned before the only M1 approved is a 0W-40, hard to find locally. The other approved oils are in the 5W-40 group, with a couple in the 5W-30.
Another of my understandings about oil (anyone correct me if I'm wrong please) is that the viscosity rating may be misunderstood. Straight 30W or 40W or 50W is what you're getting, with a multi-vis you're getting the lower of the numbers, with the protection of an oil with the viscosity of the higher number. The lowest weight with the best durability in operating conditions is what we're after here, both for flowability and engine efficiency.
That's the advantage to synthetics, better durability over time. I've been a Valvoline All Climate guy for decades, the stuff has kept my BMW going for years. But I put synth in our newer vehicles. Geez on the Porsche forums some of those guys don't change their M1 for 15-20k! |
Grimel
| | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2006 - 02:02 pm: |
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desiel rated syn followed by deseil rated dino oil.
That said, the main thing is to keep up on the basic maint. I do NOT care what oil is used if you a) don't check the level and b) change it regularly it will fail in the worst possible way at the worst possible time. |
Brucelee
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 09:31 am: |
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"Geez on the Porsche forums some of those guys don't change their M1 for 15-20k!"
Porsche now recommends oil changes at 20K for 2005 models and newer.
Most Porsche-heads will cut that in half but the point is still a good one. Used engine oil analysis has proven that a REAL synthetic like Red Line or M1 will easily go three times longer than a DINO and keep its ability to do its job. |
Chadhargis
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 10:56 am: |
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For me, changing the oil is not done because the oil is bad, it's done because the oil is also a detergent. It winds up with combustion byproducts and other crap in it. Sure, it will still lubricate, but it's flowing all that junk through your engine.
An oil analysis is the only way to know how "dirty" your engine is making your oil and when to change it. |
Thunderbox
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 04:04 pm: |
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Exbimmer asked, "Another of my understandings about oil (anyone correct me if I'm wrong please) is that the viscosity rating may be misunderstood. Straight 30W or 40W or 50W is what you're getting, with a multi-vis you're getting the lower of the numbers, with the protection of an oil with the viscosity of the higher number. The lowest weight with the best durability in operating conditions is what we're after here, both for flowability and engine efficiency."
Not really what is happening. This is what you have with a multi vis oil. The lower number is the viscosity index of a cold oil. Good for starting and getting the oil to all the parts the fastest it can. The higher number is the viscosity index of hot oil. So a 15W50 will start when cold like a 15W oil and lubricate like a 50W oil when the engine is hot. |
Xbimmer
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 07:33 pm: |
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Thunderbox, I think that's what I was saying. 
My words "in operating conditions" meant normal running operation, in other words, hot.
Once again, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that multi-vis oils are an oil of the lower viscosity index. Formula construction allows them to behave and protect like an oil of the higher vis index.
I think we think the same thing here.  |
Brucelee
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 09:53 am: |
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This might help!
"Instead of making motor oil with the conventional petroleum base, the molecules in the synthetic oil were artificially synthesized polyalpha-olefins, which are polymers specially designed to have improved motor oil properties. These polymers are made by bonding together alpha-olefin monomers which provide numerous flexible branching groups on the polymer molecule's backbone. Because this side branching interferes with the ability of the molecules to line up compactly next to each other, the flexible molecules can slide past each other more easily and the synthetic oil has good flow ability even at low temperatures. The molecules could be made large enough and "softer" to retain good viscosity at higher temperatures, yet the side branching interferes with solidification and therefore allows flow at lower temperatures. Thus, although the viscosity still decreases as temperature increases, these synthetic motor oils have a much improved viscosity index over the traditional petroleum base. Their specially designed properties allow a wider temperature range at higher and lower temperatures and often include a lower pour point. Because the viscosity changes much less with temperature, these synthetic oils need little or no viscosity index improvers that are used with the traditional petroleum based oils. The viscosity index improvers are the oil components most vulnerable to thermal and mechanical degradation as the oil ages and wears out. Because these synthetic oils have little or no viscosity improver content, they do not degrade as quickly as traditional motor oils. However, they still fill up with particulate matter like the conventional oils do, so the oil filter still fills and clogs up with time and must still be changed periodically. Synthetic oil still needs to be changed periodically; but some synthetic oil suppliers suggest the intervals between oil changes can be longer, sometimes as long as 10,000 - 15,000 miles between oil changes. " |
Whodom
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 09:58 am: |
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Once again, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that multi-vis oils are an oil of the lower viscosity index. Formula construction allows them to behave and protect like an oil of the higher vis index.
I think that's basically correct, but the viscosity base oil they start out with may be somewhere between the two numbers, not necessarily at the lower number. They add "pour point depressants" to lower the bottom number and "high temperature viscosity index improvers" to raise the top number. I'd suppose you could start out with an oil somewhere in that range and by using the proper brew of additives come out with the desired end product. |
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