| Author | Message | ||
     Chadhargis |
Well, I'm really anal about working on my bike. I always torque to proper specs, and do everything by the book. So tonight, I drain the oil, put thread sealer on the drain plug (as specified in the service manual), and thread the bolt in by hand. Once it's snug, I grab my torque wrench, set it to 30ft/lbs and begin slowly turning the bolt. Typically, it only takes a few turns for it to get tight and the wrench to "click". I got suspicious when the bolt turned more than three times. I stopped, and backed the bolt out....along with the threads from the swingarm!!! ACK!!! WHAT'S UP WITH THAT??? Now, before you start thinking, "This guy is an idiot", I assure you, I was not overtorquing the bolt. I didn't "gum" the thread sealer on (just a small bead as directed). I didn't cross thread the bolt either (that's why I put it in and hand tighten it first). So, now I have a swingarm with no oil drain threads in it. It's stripped clean as a whistle. I don't have a tap and die set, or a helicoil kit. I'm not sure what to do from here. It's pretty clear that I have a defective swingarm, but I'm guessing that if I take it to a dealer, they are going to say it's my fault and won't warranty it. Honestly, I don't know how to use a tap and die or helicoil. I've never stripped out a bolt hole before....honest! So, what do you guys suggest? Am I screwed? Am I going to have to remove the swingarm and see if a local machine shop can fix it? | ||
| Swampy |
For a temporary fix you could use a rubber expanding plug. I have used them where crankcase plugs were missing. A permanent fix? Maybe Loctie thread restorer? I have see it do some spectacular things. | ||
| Chadhargis |
Looks like a Helicoil will work. I've been doing some research. Just need to find out what the threading is on the oil drain bolt is. | ||
| Stevenknapp |
I agree with the temp rubber plug for now. Heck, good enough for click and clack: http://www.cartalk.com/content/columns/Archive/1995/October/02.html Good luck with that, FWIW, I've done a similar thing with the brake caliper mounting bolts on an old Honda I had. Sheared the bolts right off as I was confidently torquing them with my torque wrench... | ||
| Windaddiction |
you know what.... goto a local machine shop, bring your plug with you tell them what happened and see what they are gonna suggest. Helicoils are allright if you'r plannig to flip the bike but they can come out again. A better option IMHO is to tap it out and get a bigger plug. Go see what the pro's say though! | ||
| Al_lighton |
Well, let's put it in perspective. Very high quality aluminum housings that are expected to be disassembled/assembled more than a few times have threaded inserts put in every hole when they are fabricated. The only reason why this isn't done on motorcycles and other consumer goods is because of cost. So instead of thinking of the fix as a band aid repair, think of it as a product improvement, because it is. Now, there are helicoils, and there are other threaded insert types. A Keensert is a better threaded insert. Once the hole is drilled and tapped to the right size, a keensert is threaded in, and once it is in, you drive a few antirotation stakes into it. They are very good inserts. See http://www.ondrives.com/products.asp?recnumber=437 for a picture. I'm not sure if they are available in the size you need, but if they are, they are highly recommended. Nothing wrong with helicoils, but you had better be darned sure you retrieve the tang that you break off after it is put in. Al | ||
| Reepicheep |
I have a buddy with an SV-650 and helped him fix this same problem. Heli-Coils are available at most decent auto parts stores in the size you need. The Keensert Al describes is better if you can find it. The big worry I had was keeping both the tang, and all the aluminium shavings out of the system. To solve that problem, I just about created a disaster. I stuffed some very thin nylon strapping up into the engine case through the drain plug. It was a long strap, and easy to fish out, so the plan was to stuff it up there, drill the hole and insert the heli coil and break off the tang, then pull the strap (and with it the junk) back out. You can see where this is going....  The hole drilling left a ragged edge inside the oil pan, so the strap was "hooked". Further, a strap that is nice and thin going in as a single strap, would NOT come out when doubled over (which it was when you fish for it with a hooked wire and try to pull it out). It took a very tense 90 minutes until I had managed to find the *end* of the strap, and worked it out past all the burrs. So it turned out fine, but I would not ever recommend that approach be used again. I think Bomber suggested using heavy grease on the drill to accomplish the same thing in better ways. The other thing we did do that worked was to get about 4 quarts of the cheapest thinnest oil we could find. We poured it right through and let it drain right out to flush things. The Heli Coils require particular drill bits as well, often odd sizes. The bits are typically harder to find then the coils. That was the hardest thing to find for us. I am not sure the Buell drain plug will match the exact threads of the heli-coil, so get a good stainless bolt of the right size and thread pitch as well before you start to raise your odds of having a ridable bike at the end of the job. | ||
| Debueller |
We use alot of Keenserts (trade name) on aerospace tooling. They work excellent. The only problem is there could possibly "weep" a little oil because there is no o-ring where the insert meets the aluminum. Installed properly and your thread stripping problems on the drain plug would be over. | ||
| Debueller |
BTW, the weeping issue could be fixed with the proper thread sealant upon installation of the insert. | ||
| Teeps |
Here's a link to time sert http://www.timesert.com/html/drainplug.html if they don't have it; they can make it custom for you... just takes $$$$ (Message edited by teeps on April 26, 2006) | ||
| Chadhargis |
The golden question is what is the size and pitch of the drain plug? I know I can get any old bolt and stick in there, but I like having the stock one with the magnet on the end. Thanks for the tips. I might see if I can come up with one of the rubber plug options until I can find a suitable solution. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I'm not saying for sure the current drain plug won't match the thread pitch of the Heli-Coil, just that it might not. It did not on my buddies SV-650, but the bolt was already a mess (thanks to his Suzuki dealer) and was a really weird part to begin with. But my experience with Buells has been that they have fewer "stupid non standard bits" then the Japanese bikes... so I would not be suprised in the least if the heli coil would fit the stock bolt fine. | ||
| Thunderbox |
Chad go to one of those speady lube places with your old plug. They have plugs that are just a little larger than original and they are self tapers. They work really well also. They use them at those places because people strip there plugs and then take it to an oil change place and try to blame them. Worth a shot anyway and it is sooooooo easy too. | ||
| Chadhargis |
I'm weary of the self tapping bolts. I've heard bad things about them. I'm most concerned about why this happened. If the aluminum is that soft, it will happen again. I'd like to avoid threading anything into that swingarm more than once (makes me worry about the axle too!). I'm looking for a rubber plug as Steve mentioned, but can't find any place (online anyway) that carries them. In fact, the only reference I can find to them is the Click and Clack article Steve posted. I figure I've got one shot at fixing this. I want to make sure I do my due diligence and find the best solution. I did find this neat little gizmo. http://www.fumotovalve.com/ I could install it by tapping the threads into the swingarm. I still need to know the size of the stock bolt. I'm going to head to a hardware store today and see if I can find a thread gage. | ||
| Thunderbox |
I can understand your reluctance to put a self taper in. I would probably be somewhat reluctant myself. I wouldn't have recommended them if I didn't have a good experience with them first hand. We use them on occassion and have never had a seconds problem with them. But you have to do what you have to do. I will be taking every caution on mune when I change the oil. I am only going to torque it to about 20lbs instead of 30. Sorry you had to be the guinea pig. Good luck buddy. | ||
| Roadrailer |
Chad, Your local auto parts store should have them. | ||
| Chadhargis |
The expanding rubber plug intrigues me. If it works, that might be the best way to avoid have to screw anything in that hole ever again. Just can't find any information on the. You'd be surprised how many rubber plugs there are out there, but none that I can find for oil drain plugs. | ||
| Jackbequick |
You should be able to find the plugs a Napa parts store. They've been selling them for years as a repair for stipped drain plugs on oil pans. They have one or two sizes, usually starting somewhere down around 1/2" or so. I think that is a 1/2" thread on that drain plug. If it is a coarse thread (1/2-13 NC) you may be able to save that by tapping it out to to 1/2"-20 NF (1/2" Fine or SAE). The recommended tap drill for 1/2"-20 is about .031" larger than the tap drill for 1/2"-13 so there may be enough material left there to get a good NF thread. You don't have anything to lose by trying it. I'd use a 1/2"-20 plug tap (not a bottoming tap) to get a good starting taper. Start it easy and if you feel it cutting within 1/2 turn or so, stop and back it off 1/4 turn, then cut another 1/2 turn or so. That will cut the chip, lighten the load on the cutting teeth, and give you cleaner threads. Continue the cutting/backing off thing until you complete the thread. You'll have to find a 1/2"-20 plug bolt for the oil drain but that should be easy enough. If the 1/2"-20 does not save it, you might want to consider 9/16"-18 NF. A copper washer is a good bet for getting a good seal without overtightening on plugs like that. If you use one, it needs to be replaced or annealed each time to avoid work hardening it. Annealing is easy, heat it to a dull red with a propane torch and drop it in water. Jack | ||
| Chadhargis |
Jack...thanks for the info. I decided to go with the Time-Sert. I measured the drain bolt and it is a 1/2" in length with 20tpi. Must be a common size as Time-Sert had that exact kit listed at the top of the page. http://www.timesert.com/html/drainplug.html Now for the bad news... Time-Sert kit is over $90 and I didn't have a driver, so that was an extra $15. Then I had to pay for overnight shipping since I don't want my bike sitting in the garage in a non-functional state in the middle of spring. I figure that I'm stuck for $125, but that's a whole lot cheaper than a new swingarm and a whole lot easier than trying to convince a dealer or Buell that the swingarm was defective or the service manual had a mistake on the torque spec for the drain plug. I've never heard of torquing a drain plug to anywhere near 30ft/lbs. Moral of the story....either torque it VERY lightly, or use a crush washer. | ||
| Sleez |
i'd probably use some loctite on the outside threads of the insert to help seal any weeping, says it's ok on their faq section. | ||
| Lorazepam |
http://www.cgenterprises.com/drain_plugs_oversize_repair.htm http://www.valuedrain.com/ I know you pulled the trigger, but here are some alternatives for you. | ||
| 44mag |
How much does a new swingarm cost? | ||
| Chadhargis |
Don't know what a new swingarm costs, but I'm guessing it's a heap more than $125, and that's just the part, then I have to pay a dealer to install it. I don't have the tools necessary to remove the swingarm. It could be worse. Luckily our oil drain is in the swingarm, not in the engine. | ||
| Dragon_slayer |
Chad, torque specs are given for clean, dry, and undamaged bolts. Once any of the three items are changed, you can throw the specs out the window. As a experienced mechanic, I find that when I snug a bolt, it is at 20 - 30 foot pounds. I found that it's more important to feel the tightening process than to concentrate on some reading. I do use a torque wrench on a very limited basis. Do not feel bad, even the best will have one screw up every now and then. Welcome to the "business"!  | ||
| Chadhargis |
Oh yeah, that reminds me. I ALWAYS clean both the bolt and the bolt hole before reassembly. Thread sealer and loctite is nasty stuff. I use parts cleaner and a toothbrush to scrub the bolt, then I put parts cleaner on the toothbrush and scrub the drain hole threads. You are correct in saying that clean threads are important. That's why I'm so bewildered. I didn't hamfist it, or do anything stupid. I did everything by the book. Can't figure out why it stripped. I can take the blame if it's my fault, I have no issue with that, but when something like this happens, I want to know "why" so it doesn't happen again. | ||
| Dragon_slayer |
Notice I said dry, as in dry threads. The thread sealant will act as a lube and allow you to over tighten even with a torque wrench. | ||
| Ka5ysy |
Anybody here consider drilling the plug and using stainless steel safety wire? Solves a lot of problems with wrong locktite and stripped threads, and is really easy to do to critical bolts, etc. | ||
| Teeps |
Chad, Over on the Honda VTX forum there is a guy that bought genuine Honda special tools to install steering head bearings. He was renting them to other board members and was able to off-set his outlay on the tools. Now, he loans them out for cost of two-way shipping. Just a thought. Cheers, Tp | ||
| Stevem123 |
Here's a fix that hasn't been mentioned but offers endless configurations when you think about it. Use a 1/4" NPT tap. This is a pipe thread tap that is actually a 1/2" tapered hole when finished. Now you could get a 90° street elbow hose nipple fitting and a short neoprene hose, two good squeeze clamps, and make a nice hose plug that you can easily remove for draining the oil. Get a stick-on plastic cable hanger that will fit the hose to hide it under the swingarm until you need to get at it. Of course you could also just put a 1/4" pipe plug in there and be done with it but I would rather screw something in there once and leave it with some good thread locker to prevent spreading the hole each time you re-tighten the plug. A LOT cheaper than the timesert and you can find the fittings at any hardware store. BC Steve | ||
| Reepicheep |
The timeserts are nice, no doubt, but for the record, a $10 heli-coil kit will work just fine. |
