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Thunderbox
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 02:07 pm: | 
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Yes Roadrailer I am referring to the piston skirt below the first and second rings. There will most definately be black on ther piston top. Thanks for letting me clear that up. |
Chadhargis
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 03:12 pm: |
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Allow me to clarify....
Breaking the engine in by the book means that you aren't changing your oil for 1000 miles. That is simply bad juju. Some manufacturers recommend 600 mile initial services, and that's a little better, but not optimal. The first 50 miles are the most difficult on a new engine.
I dumped my oil at 50 miles and changed the filter too. The oil was full of shiny metallic bits. Unlike Thunderbox, I'm not a mechanic, so I can't begin to guess where that junk comes from, but it's there. There could be enough of it to eventually clog your oil filter causing it to open the bypass valve and circulate unfiltered oil through your brand new engine. You want to get that mess out of your engine before it can clog the filter. When you start thinking, you realize the REAL reason they want you to keep the RPMs low for 1000 miles. Basically your circulating metallic cheese through your engine. High RPM operation would not be a good idea. I would venture to guess that low RPM lugging of the engine is not as bad as full RPM usage with metal flakes in the oil.
I've owned a bike that I broke in by the book, and it ran fine and didn't burn oil, so I'm not saying that it's always going to have a negative effect. Doing a wheelie on your bike is bad for it, but that doesn't mean your steering head bearing is going to go bad or your fork seals will blow out if you do wheelies...but they can.
As far as the warranty is concerned, I don't think you'd be violating your warranty. Can those of you who broke the bike in by the book be 100% positive that you NEVER exceeded the recommended RPM....not even once, just for fun? Can you prove it? If your engine fails, the manufacturer could just as well claim abuse on your part. They don't, because they can't confirm the abuse, and don't want to be caught up in a legal battle. It's cheaper and just plain better business for them to fix it and send you away a happy customer. That being said, I've never had a warranty claim on a bike I've broken in the "motoman" way. Actually, of all the bikes I've owned, except one which was broken in by the book, have never been to the dealer for a warranty issue.
In my opinion, which is just that...and opinion, you're taking a greater risk doing it by the book than you are the Motoman way.
I'm not suggesting anyone do anything they are uncomfortable with. Just letting folks know that there are options out there that have strong support behind them. Of course, that doesn't mean it's the right way...just an alternative. |
Thunderbox
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 03:24 pm: |
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It doesn't take much to cause a filter to bypass. Every morning when I was riding the bike in the late fall it was below freezing at night. When I started it up I could hear a buzzing sound which would go away after a few minutes. It toke me a while to realize what it was. The oil filter bypass was working and that was causing the noise. Now do that when the bike is new and all those particals are in the oil. Not a good scenario. Chad is correct saying change the oil at the earliest opportunity after going 50 miles or so.
I used to think the filter would take care of all those fine particals but considering what I heard this fall, I was so wrong.
(Message edited by thunderbox on March 22, 2006) |
Jim_sb
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 03:26 pm: |
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Curiously BMW puts synthetic in their new cars from the factory and insists that you leave it in the engine for 15k miles.
How do they do it?
Jim in SB |
Thunderbox
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 03:29 pm: |
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I would think they take precautions with assembly and either run some oil through the vehicles first and run them under load at the factory and then put a new filter and oil in the vehicle.
I bet Motoman works for them LOL |
Wasions
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 03:48 pm: |
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So Chad,
Y'ever consider going into politics?
When I bought my Tiger, the salesperson (who has been there for a very long time) stated that every Triumph was filled with fluids and run hard on a dyno before draining and shipping. He apparently has seen this for himself. It's also filled with full synthetic Mobil 1 Racing 4T from day one. I've been just riding it like I plan to for it's lifetime. I did my first oil/filter change at 125 miles. We'll see....
Steve
Gear up! |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 03:48 pm: |
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"As far as the warranty is concerned, I don't think you'd be violating your warranty."
Read your Warranty. Then, read the break-in procedure. It is not a recommendation.
"If your engine fails, the manufacturer could just as well claim abuse on your part."
They could not as easily make that claim against me as they could with someone who publicly refutes the OEM break-in requirements. |
Court
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 03:50 pm: |
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>>>BMW puts synthetic in their new cars
As, I believe, do Porsche and the Corvette.
Deviating from factory break-in recommendations makes you a test pilot. |
Roadrailer
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 04:08 pm: |
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Allow me to clarify....
Breaking the engine in by the book means that you aren't changing your oil for 1000 miles. That is simply bad juju. Some manufacturers recommend 600 mile initial services, and that's a little better, but not optimal. The first 50 miles are the most difficult on a new engine.
(snip)
I'm not suggesting anyone do anything they are uncomfortable with. Just letting folks know that there are options out there that have strong support behind them. Of course, that doesn't mean it's the right way...just an alternative.
There's still a huge difference between more frequent oil changes during break in and a high-rpm break in. FWIW, I changed my oil at 500 miles.
Reread your original post on this topic. That doesn't sound like someone offering an alternative opinion to me. It sounds like someone telling me following the manual is wrong and potentially damaging to my motorcycle.
Again, for the record, I don't think the high-rpm break in is inherently bad, I just take exception to the claim that the method suggested by most motorcycle OMs is potentially damaging to the engine. Until someone shows me some real proof that the high-rpm method is better, I'll stick with the manufacturer's suggestion.
BTW, do those of you who follow the motoman method change the primary fluid too? Seems that those parts are receiving the same elevated strain.
Thunderbox, the oil filter bypass is simply a spring-operated valve inside the filter, correct? If so, I highly doubt you were hearing it over the engine noise. |
Thunderbox
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 04:12 pm: |
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Putting my finger on the filter confirmed it was the bypass. Has anyone else noticed this in under freezing temps. |
Roadrailer
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 04:21 pm: |
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Putting my finger on the filter confirmed it was the bypass.
How? |
Thunderbox
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 04:30 pm: |
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I could feel and hear the sound. I could get a second opinion but hey I've been a licensed mechanic for 30 years+. I trust my senses. I am sorry if you doubt what I'm saying. But thats the way I see it. |
Roadrailer
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 04:51 pm: |
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I could feel and hear the sound. I could get a second opinion but hey I've been a licensed mechanic for 30 years+. I trust my senses. I am sorry if you doubt what I'm saying. But thats the way I see it.
Don't be so sensitive, I was just curious. I've never heard of the oil-filter-bypass-finger test before.  |
Thunderbox
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 04:53 pm: |
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No problem I wasn't being sensitive. You asked I answered. I don't really know if it is actually called an oil filter bypass finger test but that is as good as any. LOL |
Crusty
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 05:08 pm: |
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I've used the factory recommended break in method on all my bikes. My FXE had 72,000 miles on it; my XLH1100 only had 30,000, my FLHS had 125,000 on it, my S3-T had 60,000, my M2 has 55,000. None have had any engine problems. Oh wait; I had a bad lifter in my M2 that I had to replace.
Tell me again how the factory break in method is bad. |
Chadhargis
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 05:49 pm: |
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Yes, I changed the primary oil as well. Did it every time I changed the oil. Can't be too overly zealous when changing lubricants.
I think the break-in debate is closely kin to the oil debate, tire debate, and abortion debate. There are two camps and nothing either side does or says is going to sway anyone away from their beliefs.
All I can say is that I've seen good results with the Motoman method. I've read countless accounts of others who do the same thing. I've seen racers and hot rod builders do the same thing. To me it makes sense and breaking in an engine easily doesn't, in fact, the easy method seems like it's detramental. I have never heard of anyone's engine being damaged by the Motoman method, but I've seen several folks complain of heavy carbon build up, high oil usage, and power loss when they broke it in by the book.
I'm doing what I believe is the correct.
Que sera sera |
Roadrailer
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 06:22 pm: |
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I have never heard of anyone's engine being damaged by the Motoman method, but I've seen several folks complain of heavy carbon build up, high oil usage, and power loss when they broke it in by the book.
Why do you attribute these problems to break in method? They could be caused by any number of issues, the least of which (IMO) is the manufacturer's suggested break in. |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 06:23 pm: |
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"Que sera sera"
I was tracking with you right up until the gratuitous quote from Dorris Day.
 |
Bross
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 10:05 pm: |
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I think a lot of this break-in debate is moot in this day and age. The motors are designed better, using better materials and lubricants, and manufactured in almost clean room environments (or are they manufactured in clean rooms?), so what was true 10-15 years ago won't mean much by today's standards. I think the motors we get in our new bikes from any major manufacturer is pretty much broken in when we get them. That's sure true for cars anyway, it says right in my Honda Odyssey manual that the motor is broken in, they just suggest gentle stops to bed the brake pads in but that's about it. It's a different story if you do your own rebuild or add a big bore kit, etc. then I can see the benefit of the motoman technique for sure. Same as the running synthetic oil vs dino, what was true of synthetic oil 10 years ago has no bearing on todays motors.
(Message edited by bross on March 22, 2006) |
Bandirola
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 10:31 pm: |
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Reading this thread makes me glad I can't afford a new bike. Too much to worry about. I find the buy a used bike that I can afford and cross my fingers and toes method works just fine. |
Ironbutt
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 12:40 am: |
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>>Chad is correct saying change the oil at the earliest opportunity after going 50 miles or so. <<
No one can argue that changing oil is bad, but I have been riding 37 years now and I never change before the recommendation, and right or wrong, usually end up going way past it because I ride a lot, and ALL my motorcycles have run on name brand automotive oil (think 99 cents a quart), several of my bikes have gone over 100,000 miles and one 240,000 (second owner purchased it when I had over 140,000 on it and then rode it another 4 years).
As an engineer at one of the big 4 in Japan told me some years back while visiting the factory in Hammatsu, "change oil not bad, makes us lot money"
50 miles though?! Wow, that is impressive. You don't even want to know how many I went before I changed the oil the first time. Maybe we should all compare oil change notes 3 years down the road and see where we are at.
Mike |
Chadhargis
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 11:11 am: |
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Of course, once my engine is fully broken in and I switch to synthetic at 3000 miles, I follow the suggested service schedule.
I, unfortunately, don't get to ride very much. Maybe 10,000 miles a year between two bikes. So figure I'll be putting 7000-8000 a year on my Ulysses if I'm lucky. That means lots of short rides, local twisties, and sometimes a commute to work on a nice day. Those are hard miles on an engine. If I were taking longer rides, the corrosion protection offered by synthetic oil would not be as big of an asset.
For example. I changed the oil in my Ducati last October. I've since done a track day and a few local rides, but not many miles. That oil has been in there 5 months now, but only has maybe 700 miles on it. I like knowing that my engine isn't rusting away thanks the the corrosion inhibitors typically not present in conventional oil.
You say tomayto, all say tomahato (there...is that better than Dorris Day?  ) |
Dr_greg
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 02:29 pm: |
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Reading this thread makes me glad I can't afford a new bike.
Hear, hear! I bought the demo bike, and you can guess how it was "broken in"...also runs dead smooth down to idle (I often leave at idle in first gear) and doesn't use oil. |
Jim_sb
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 02:32 pm: |
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Smcnamara
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 03:16 pm: |
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I bought the demo bike, and you can guess how it was "broken in"...
Ummmm.... By the book?
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