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Roadrailer
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 02:51 pm: | 
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"Why?"
Because I flucking want a center stand. Is that good enough for you? Pardon me for believing that I need not have a reason that would suit anyone but myself.
Here's your chip, LF, I must have knocked it off your shoulder. 
You can want a centerstand all day long, but IMO it would detract from the bike for the reasons listed in my previous post. It's a difference of opinion. Can't a guy disagree with you without getting your panties in a wad?
(Message edited by roadrailer on March 28, 2006) |
Chadhargis
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 03:15 pm: |
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I've got to ask why you say that?
Because I've seen it happen time and time again. How many times have you seen a dangerous intersection "fixed" after 5 or 6 bad or fatal crashes? How many times have you seen a vehicle recalled after people get hurt or killed (such as the Ford Explorer tire debacle)? How many times have you seen warning labels or signs posted after someone has been injured or killed?
As for Buell, I was not specifically pointing fingers at them. I mentioned no names. It's just as much our responsibility as consumers as it is the factory's. If we are aware of a defect that is potentially hazardous, we should report it. How can any manufacturer be held accountable for fixing a defect if they aren't aware of the issue?
a company that has gone about 9 miles past the figurative "extra mile" in backing up their bikes, sound like a cold, heartless bunch of folks.
I don't believe Buell is a heartless company. I'm sure they employ great folks and I'm proud to ride their bike, but again, they can't fix what they aren't aware of. As for fixing it myself, well, I suppose I could take the muffler off (which is sort of a pain in the butt) and replace the bolts, but I shouldn't have to should I? What about folks who don't read BadWeb or aren't mechanically inclined? As first year owners, we are guinnea pigs in some respects. No matter what kind of QA you put a product through, defects will always manage to get through. It happens to the best of manufacturers.
I don't think my statement undermines my credibility. If anything, it supports it. It's nothing more than common sense. If you made and sold thousands of products, and one of two of them that you knew about broke, would you assume they were all defective? Of course not. You'd think it was a fluke. But, if you got hundreds of reports of the same issue, you might think differently. The whole point of my post was to urge those who've experienced failures to report it. That's the only way we're going to keep a potential tragedy from happening.
Buell has a responsibility as the manufacturer. We have responsibilities as owners.
Here we are in complete agreement. As consumers, we should report the issues and as a manufacturer, Buell should issue a recall to replace the bolts with stronger ones. I've been teaching MSF courses for 5 years, and do several "static" drills where I have the students sit on the bike while it's on the sidestand. These are cheapo little 250cc training bikes. I've never had a sidestand break or come loose. Can't be that difficult to make one that will support the weight of bike and rider. Heck, while were at it, I'd like to have it snap in place instead of me having to push it forward with my foot when I park the bike.
Understand, I'm not saying anything negative about anyone, just stating an absolute fact. Someone shouldn't have to be hurt, embarrassed, or in a worst case killed because of a defect. And we shouldn't be responsible for fixing it ourselves. Sure, I could take mine to the dealer, but what are they going to install? The same type bolts of course, and they will most likely make me pay the labor change to boot since there is no recall on the issue. I don't mind living with little quirks of a bike, but for goodness sake, the thing should have proper sidestand bolts. |
Windrider
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 03:40 pm: |
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Court,
You are right, Buell does go farther than most manufacturers in supporting their bikes and riders. I think most folks who read this forum are also committed to the brand from the riders side as well.
However, in my humble opinion, in this case something is wrong with the design for so many bikes to break off the sidestand in less than one year of use. What will the failure rate be after 10 years? Also, I am not sure that there is much warning for the rider before the bike tumbles. The stand normally has a fair amount of loose play and I am doubtful that most riders would notice a little extra play and once the bolts are loose I can imagine that they will rapidly loosen as the bike dances around a fair bit at idle on the stand.
Because of the potential risk for a serious injury and for the bad PR that happens when someone is showing off their new Buell and it falls over on itself, I am still hopeful that the factory will issue a service bulletin or a redesigned part or procedure to address this problem.
Thanks for listening! |
Roadrailer
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 04:01 pm: |
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Court,
You are right, Buell does go farther than most manufacturers in supporting their bikes and riders. I think most folks who read this forum are also committed to the brand from the riders side as well.
However, in my humble opinion, in this case something is wrong with the design for so many bikes to break off the sidestand in less than one year of use. What will the failure rate be after 10 years? Also, I am not sure that there is much warning for the rider before the bike tumbles. The stand normally has a fair amount of loose play and I am doubtful that most riders would notice a little extra play and once the bolts are loose I can imagine that they will rapidly loosen as the bike dances around a fair bit at idle on the stand.
Because of the potential risk for a serious injury and for the bad PR that happens when someone is showing off their new Buell and it falls over on itself, I am still hopeful that the factory will issue a service bulletin or a redesigned part or procedure to address this problem.
Thanks for listening!
I agree that Buell should come up with a fix for this issue, but I really don't think it's an epidemic. How many cases have there actually been? I've only read about two or three. And how many of those people are using the footpeg to mount the bike? My bet says all of them. |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 04:01 pm: |
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I'm not sure what you are talking about as far as chips and panties. I thought the topic was kickstands and my comment was in reference to my own bike; not yours or anyone else's.
I want a center stand so that if my kickstand breaks when I'm "adventure" touring, I won't have to look for a tree to lean the bike on whenever I feel like stopping to pee. I don't agree that it would detract from my bike nor do I agree that you are qualified to comment on what would detract from my bike. That is regardless of your reasons and the same is true for any other panty-wearing chip-eater that feels the need to argue with me over my personal preference. Live and let live.  |
Roadrailer
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 04:21 pm: |
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Again, LF, all I'm doing is expressing my opinion. Why you're taking such issue with that, I don't know. Expressing opinions is kinda what this whole internet forum thing is about.
And, FWIW, I don't think the Uly needs a centerstand as a backup. If the sidestand is the problem, then the sidestand needs to be fixed.
BTW (I'm just curious) do many adventure tourers have centerstands? GS? Tiger? Strom? |
Smcnamara
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 04:28 pm: |
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Not sure about the Tiger or GS, but it's an add-on for the V-Strom. |
Jim_sb
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 04:33 pm: |
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Hi guys,
The BMW "pigs" NEED a center stand. With the tubed tires if you get a flat in the middle of nowhere are you just going to throw it on the ground to repair the tube? You could, but it's gonna be a PIG to pick up again.
With a Uly (I had to do this the day I bought my bike) you just plug the tire and go on your merry way.
Now with my DRZ400S I would just throw the bike on the ground and pull the rear wheel and patch the tube. But it is a LOT lighter than the big Beemer.
Centerstands are nice enough but I don't need one on my Uly. I'd rather have more adventurous tire options. Better tires can make a huge difference off pavement.
To each his own wish list, eh?
Jim in Santa Barbara |
Jim_sb
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 04:38 pm: |
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PS. Regarding the kickstand breaking - YES - it has happened too often early on - hopefully Buell will address this.
I find myself crawling on the garage floor looking at mine each week. It is a nuisance at this point - I hope nothing more.
At this point I will no longer mount the bike using the left peg unless it's required to step over a tent or gear bag - and I have greatly reduced the amount of time I allow the bike to idle on the kick stand.
Regards,
Jim in Santa Barbara |
Mb182
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 04:47 pm: |
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"The BMW "pigs" NEED a center stand. With the tubed tires if you get a flat in the middle of nowhere are you just going to throw it on the ground to repair the tube? You could, but it's gonna be a PIG to pick up again."
Plus with those cylinders sticking out you can get it over far enough to get the wheels off the ground.
Maybe if ya carried a shovel, you could dig a hole to lean it over in??
I'll pass on a center stand.. Lifting a 500+# bike on to it is a B%^&&*
MB |
99buellx1
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 04:50 pm: |
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quote:Can anyone comment on the difference between a Ulyssess sidestand as compared to any other model of XB sidestand?
The kickstand on a Uly is much longer than on the other model XB's. |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 04:57 pm: |
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Road,
I am taking issue with your expressing an opinion of my personal preference. You asked me why, and then railed on about all the reasons why a center stand would suck. You could have just stated why you think a center stand would not be needed on your bike without addressing me at all. That would have been friendlier and would not have called me out. This is pretty simple stuff.
(e.g. "Centerstands are nice enough but I don't need one on my Uly.") |
Wasions
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 05:00 pm: |
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"Not sure about the Tiger or GS, but it's an add-on for the V-Strom."
The centerstand is optional on the Tiger in the U.S. (but comes with the bike in the U.K. - along with heated grips). I'm constantly annoyed at how difficult it is to lube the chain on my DR, so I opted for the c/s on the Tiger. But it comes in way handy for many things besides chain maintenance. Oil changes and general clean-up come quickly to mind.
Steve
Gear up! |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 05:02 pm: |
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BTW, I took the liberty of giving myself 1 star for the remainder of my posts in this thread so you don't have to worry about it.  |
Teeps
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 05:25 pm: |
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What would a center stand be worth to those that desire one?
How much clearance, ground or cornering, would you be willing to give up for a center stand?
How much additional weight would be acceptable for the fitment of a center stand?
What sort of surface finish would be desired, on said center stand? |
Chadhargis
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 05:25 pm: |
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The GS comes standard with a centerstand as most BMWs do (with the exception of the S model and the thumpers). My FJR had a centerstand, I added one to my KLR, and my Kawasaki ZR-7s had one standard. My Ducati doesn't have one, and don't really miss it. Just put it up on the paddock stand in the garage so I can lube and inspect the chain. The Ulysses doesn't really need a centerstand either, but based on the issue of the sidestands breaking off, I might put it on a paddock stand too. |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 05:27 pm: |
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The wonder of the internet is that company's can learn about things like this MUCH sooner than in the past.
In the old days, chronologically about 5 years ago, the way a company learned of a problem was when something bad happened, either legally or to somebody.
I agree that this *seems* to warrant investigation and my bet is that folks tons smarter than me are doing just that.
In the interim, I'm thinking we're all "on notice" as SBJim said to undertake the PITA weekly inspection pending further information.
Personally, I am thrilled to have a place like Badweb to learn of this when the FIRST one happens...that is quite very cool. |
Roadrailer
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 05:36 pm: |
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Road,
I am taking issue with your expressing an opinion of my personal preference. You asked me why, and then railed on about all the reasons why a center stand would suck. You could have just stated why you think a center stand would not be needed on your bike without addressing me at all. That would have been friendlier and would not have called me out. This is pretty simple stuff.
(e.g. "Centerstands are nice enough but I don't need one on my Uly.")
Good grief, you can't be that sensitive. So I can express a dissenting opinion, as long as it's phrased in just the right way so as not to damage your delicate ego, and doesn't address you personally? Um, ok.
I agree, this is simple stuff. You expressed an opinion (or personal preference, whatever you need to call it). I disagreed, and listed my reasons as to why. Instead of supporting your view (which would be the normal thing to do in this kind of situation, btw) you launch into all this mess.
I'm all for you having 10 different stands on your bike, if you want. I just happen to think that a centerstand is totally unnecessary on a bike without a chain. And I really don't think that a centerstand is a solution to the main topic of this thread, the side stand breaking. But if you don't want to hear opinions that differ from your own, you probably shouldn't post them on the internet. Or maybe some thicker skin would help.
BTW, I didn't give you any stars. I hadn't even noticed we could do that until you pointed it out.
I apologize to everyone else for the threadjacking. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 06:02 pm: |
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Commenting negatively concerning another poster's person is simply unwelcome here.
Lowflyer, you are WAY out of line.  All you had to do was simply answer the man's question. No need whatsoever to make the issue personal. NONE!
Consider yourself in time out.  |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 06:55 pm: |
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Awe shucks...
"Commenting negatively concerning another poster's person is simply unwelcome here."
Agreed. Can we also say that Roadrailer publicly commenting as to the state of any panties in my possession or on my person is unwelcome as well? I mean, I tend to think my panties are quite loose.  |
Stevenknapp
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 07:17 pm: |
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Court, any way to find out if the factory is looking into this?
I'm tempted to replace the bolts with grade-8 HW. Just out of paranoia.
But I'm curious what the factory is doing. |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 07:28 pm: |
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Any chance they might change the name of the bike to XB12X Achilles in light of the limp side stand issue? |
Fubar
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 07:31 pm: |
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pa dum pum...tish |
Dave
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 07:58 pm: |
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Folks that are replacing the bolts with a grade 8 bolt: What are you threading the bolt into? Aluminum?
I'm biased: My experience-Buell has stood behind their product over and over. If there is an issue, Buell will resolve. I am 100% confident in that. Statements about people have to get hurt first are totally out of line. I hazard to guess that wheels were turning as this issue came to light.
Take ownership and do your pre-flights for now. I know we all want turn key and no second thoughts but that's utopian.
DAve
(with all that said...I have been watching mine as well)
(Message edited by dave on March 28, 2006) |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 08:12 pm: |
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>>>Take ownership and do your pre-flights for now.
I'd say that's the key for now....elevated vigilance.
It's not, as most of you know, quite as simple as saying we've got something happening and 9:00AM and shipping the "total one size fits all" solution at 1:00PM to arrive the next morning.
There is a process and Buell can do it quickly. But the first thing is to differentiate between problem and symptom so you are not "fixing" the symptom. Anyone here, c'mon...be honest....ever double-nutted an exhaust nut on a Harley-Davidson motor? IF so, you know what I mean. You simply move the location the problem occurs at next time.
In the instant case, I (with the qualification that I am a construction worker and guys like Blake are top flight structural engineers) would seek to determine if I'm dealing with, perhaps, a shipment of bad bolts, or if something else is laying the plot for the upcoming book .."when good bolts do bad things".
I'm in no position to say What Buell is or is not doing. But if they've missed this, it'd be the first time in going on a quarter of a century. I'm confident, as I said earlier, that smart people are doing their smart people thing and that they'll have their people get in touch with our people at the first possible moment.
If I do hear anything, I will share it.
Court |
Stevem123
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 08:55 pm: |
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Well here are my broken bolts. You can clearly see by the color of the washer area that they were loose and had been that way for some time. I had tightened the rear bolt but I could not get a wrench on the front one so it stayed as I found it. I can only blame myself for not taking issue more fully in hand.
I still think the bolts are very soft based on how easy the drill bit went into them.
I do still think that the factory should send out a bulletin and replace any found loose immediately. There are some pretty wild stresses going on even with the kick stand in the up position with the motor running.
Just my .02
BC Steve
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Crusty
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 09:59 pm: |
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I'll take Court's suggestion. I've never seen any other Company/Distributer/ Importer that ever began to approach the lengths that Buell has gone to for me just to keep me a happy customer.
Every time that Buell addresses a problem with one of their bikes, the problem never surfaces again. |
Two_buells
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 10:06 pm: |
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Steve, we have the same kind of desk.
Bolts were easy to drill out, I replaced them with Grade 8..
I just wish I didn't scratch up the side of my new bike.
(Message edited by Two_Buells on March 28, 2006) |
Aeholton
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 08:19 am: |
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Are these grade 8 bolts that you guys are replacing your broken ones with something you can pick up at Home Depot or ACE Hardware? If so, do you have the size information so they can be purchased ahead of time? I need to change my oil this weekend and figured I would drop my pipe and change mine out as a precaution. |
Mikej
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 08:19 am: |
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While you guys are posting pics could one of you also post a pic of the mount as well? Thanks.
And just to compare desktops, here's mine from a week or so ago. Doesn't currently have any broken bolts on it, but is indicative of what I'd rather be doing right now. Hope you all get this sorted out in short order, wait, Uly talk, make that in tall order.
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Ftd
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 01:52 pm: |
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I have been keeping a list of Uly idiosyncrasies. These items are gleamed from various BWB threads. Am I missing anything?
O2 sensor wire rub on rocker box
Horn rub on fly screen
Side stand bolts
Seat rub on rocker box
Wire sheath tie wrapped too tight on steering head
Side bags latches
Side bag rubber seals
Tires (Scorpion syncs)
This isn't to bash the bike as I am picking one up from Daves in May. I just don't want any surprises on the trip back to Orlando and I have started a TO DO list for the future.
Frank |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 02:54 pm: |
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Frank,
That is a handy list to have available. Thanks. 
Lowflyer,
He was accurate and somewhat justified following the extremely rude and confrontational comments by you. Drop it now please! |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 06:59 pm: |
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"He was accurate and somewhat justified following the extremely rude and confrontational comments by you."
Yes, you pretty much said that already when you admonished me the first time.
"Drop it now please!"
I THOUGHT I HAD!!!! } |
Ftd
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 07:29 pm: |
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One more item:
Easily broken off tag light |
Dragon_slayer
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 11:00 pm: |
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One more item: front tire hitting chin spoiler. |
Dragon_slayer
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 11:09 pm: |
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Where the hell did this mess come from? QUICK BOARD? There is enough opinions climbing on others, on here, that you could build a human pyramid!  Lets all drop it. |
Rhinowerx
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 12:47 am: |
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"Easily broken off tag light" - already a factory fix for this - under warranty
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142838/174692.html?1143431392
Cheers
-Jack |
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