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Speedysheep
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 08:44 pm: | 
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Blake:
>> "Twisting the Uly's throttle at 3,000 rpm in second resulted in some vibration and a gentle surge forward. Higher rpm didn't help much. It has all the character of a riding lawnmower engine."
This was definitely out of line and I apologized for it. Sorry again.
I do stand behind my more detailed comments of the engine performance, however. I'm not going to apologize for that.
>> The fact that at 2,500 RPM the Buell XB12 mill is putting down 30% more power than an SV1000 seems to support what they say and contradict what detractors here say. At 3,000 the Buell stomps the SV1000 by over 20%.
That's all well and good, but I don't ride dyno charts. There are some other factors, such as gearing and flywheel effect that have a large influence on acceleration. Those are hard to measure on a dyno. A diesel truck engine makes alot of torque at low rpm too, but I wouldn't want it in a sports car. I felt like the Buell was always fighting its flywheels, which hindered accleration substantially.
Cycle World lists these performance numbers for the XB12X:
0-60: 3.7 sec
1/4 mile: 12.18 seconds @ 110.24 mph
60-80 mph top-gear roll-on: 4.3 seconds
Motorcyclist lists these numbers for the SV1000:
0-60: 3.56 sec
1/4 mile: 10.90 @ 126.2 mph
60-80 mph top-gear roll-on: 3.56 seconds
Sorry, I couldn't find the Cycle World test of the SV1000 to compare those directly, but these should do. I don't care that much about 0-60 or 1/4 mile times, but the SV absolutely kills the Ulysses in roll-on acceleration. Where's all that torque?
>>One favorite method of trolling is to disguise disingenuous commentary among what appears to be thoughtful content. Basically what Limper and fast Sheep-man have claimed is that the Buell XB12X is great except for the not-so minor points that its engine is supposedly anemically whimpy, vibrates and is hard to manage/control at low speeds.
The engine is not anemic, it just doesn't have the quality of power that I'm used to in other bikes. I also agree with limper that it vibrated excessively in the footpegs, which is certainly a valid concern for him. I've addressed the low-speed driveability issues in another post.
These are all valid observations and useful information to anyone else interested in the bike. Deal with it.
I didn't start all this as a troll, I was seriously interested in this bike. I had gone so far as to contact DaveS off-list to get a quote for a Ulysses plus luggage. I was ready to put my money down if I liked the demo ride. Unfortunately I didn't.
Blake, I was seriously interested in Buell and willing to consider them in the future if they do something to address the engine issues that I'm concerned with. After listening to you I'm ready to walk away. Keep drinking the kool-aid and ban me from the list. I'm done. |
Cajunrph
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 09:34 pm: |
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45, no hard feelings. It is obvious that you have a great passion for Buells. I understand that fully, as I have a great passion for LSU Football and if anyone tells me we would not have handed USC head to them if we got a chance to play them with 2004 Championship team I would make your meltdown look like a Sunday brunch with the Baptist. I look forward to developing the same passion for Buell no matter what engine Erik comes up with. We both want the same end result, that of Buell achieving greater sucess in the sportbike community.
Blake, I take everyone word as truth unless I know it is BS. (like USC having a chance vs LSU 2003-2004 squad) You more than likely are the same which is why you jumped. Everyone comes from different back grounds and experiences. Val Rossi might think the GSXR 1000 is lame compared to his works M900. May be the experience you have running this board lead to your commits. But I want to ride the Lawn mower that can pull like a XB12 motor. Should finish the lawn in 5 min tops.
I will try to go on a test ride on Saturday and will post my results. Mancuso in Houston has some left over 03-05 models so they should be broken in well. No tight engines hopefully.
Limp man I wish you well and will pray for you. Sheep man I think you owe it to yourself to get a second ride to find out for sure. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 12:39 am: |
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Speedysheep,
Why did you feel compelled to upgrade the performance of your SV1000? (second time I'vce asked you that question.) How much difference did that make to its performance?
What RPM is an SV1000 turning in high gear at 60mph and 80 mph, respectively?
At those speeds, an XB12 is lumbering along at about 3,000 rpm and 4,000 rpm, respectively.
I suspect your beloved SV1000's engine is spinning 25% faster at 5,100 rpm by the time it reaches 80 mph in high gear. If that is the kind of engine you want, then you absolutely should stick with the SV or a V-Strom or whatever.
Now you are wanting to compare 1/4 mile times and 0-60 times?
Are you wanting more peak HP or better low-end power? Because the 1/4 mile drag race performance you are now invoking has little to do with low-end engine performance. That was your main complaint about the Buell engine, right? Or are you now changing your mind?
The difference between the 0-60 times you post is minimal, which is a testament to the XB12's superior low-end HP. Despite a 20HP advantage, the XB12 nearly matches the 0-60 time of the SV1000. Why? The Buell XB12 has superior low-end performance which benefits significantly its 0 to 60 performance.
Somehow after reading your thoughtful proclamation that "Twisting the Uly's throttle at 3,000 rpm in second resulted in some vibration and a gentle surge forward. Higher rpm didn't help much. It has all the character of a riding lawnmower engine." I don't feel too guilty for having chased you away.
Nice parting insult too. You are a real gem. If by keep drinking the Kool-Aid, you mean to continue appreciating Buell motorcycles, trust me, I will, especially in this here Buell Enthusiasts' discussion board. |
Limper
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 02:05 pm: |
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Blake,
What can I say about you that isn't already blatantly apparent in your constructive and well considered posts?
The XBX may be the best platform Buell has produced to date but it has the same engine that has garnered mixed reviews for several years now. So it shouldn't surprise you when people new to the brand voice the same concerns as those before. It doesn't help Buell or this board to insult people who bring an outsider's perspective. Neither Ssheep or I said anything that hasn't been said before, and even by some who have opted for the 9 over the 12. And personally I came into this really wanting to add the XBX to me garage. But I may have been a bit ahead of myself cuz I had never ridden a bike with this powerplant.
"I just smell something a little stinky in the air here and have little tolerance for it. Whether that stink is malevolent or not is debatable."
Regarding the stink...try opening a window.
XB12burner,
People are staring at your bike and the first thing they notice is the motor? Yeah it's a great looking bike and it's a cool motor. BUT ARE THEY RIDING IT? Cuz, that's what we're talking about here.
'Cept not anymore for me. Officially turned off. Bye!} |
Vfrbart
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 02:22 pm: |
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I don't know, I don't recall the press ever poo poo'ing a Buells low/mid range torque which is what I think Blake found suspect (but I'll let him speak for himself).
"drinking the kool-aid"? That comment really set off my BS alarm. Sounds like someones been around at least long enough to learn and quote the over-used catch phrase from that "other" board. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 02:58 pm: |
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Limper,
Way to leave out the next sentence in your quote. Maybe you missed that. 
Bingo Bart.
The "Kool-Aid" comment is well established in popular culture. Even Bill O'Reilly uses it, and not in context of Buell motorcycles either.
Frankly, I like Kool-Aid, just not with so much sugar. It's all Dave's fault, and Erik's fault. but mainly it is the 1996 Buell S1 Lightning demo bike's fault. The low-end grunt and mid-range power of that bike sold me on the spot. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 04:04 pm: |
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quote:
Unfortunately there's one thing about the bike that I just couldn't stand. The engine. I'm afraid I found the performance to be very uninspiring. Contrary to some printed reviews I've seen I could not lug it down to 1,200 rpm and pull smoothly away, not even in first gear. The throttle response at low rpm was horrible and the engine didn't smooth out enough to be rideable until about 2,000 rpm. The grabby clutch didn't help. Above 3,000 rpm it felt much better, but there still wasn't alot of power on tap. Maybe it's just the heavy flywheels muting the power delivery, but this engine just didn't do anything for me.
I like my motorcycle engines to have some character, some guts. My SV1000, for example, is a rabid, snarling beast. Lots of character, lots of attitude. When you twist the throttle at 3,000 rpm in second gear it leaps forward with a roar. Twisting the Uly's throttle at 3,000 rpm in second resulted in some vibration and a gentle surge forward. Higher rpm didn't help much. It has all the character of a riding lawnmower engine.
That was the section that rubbed everyone the wrong way. Blake may have communicated in a way just about guarenteed to make things worse instead of better, but he did not say anything most of us were not already thinking.
It's the combination of the slam (all the character of a lawnmower engine) with a completely irrational statement (no grunt at 3000 RPM relative to an SV1000). Many of us here have ridden on platforms with that motor (in my case the VStrom), and know it simply makes no sense. At 3000-3500 RPM, even my XB9 can be startling in the yank that it gives if I hit the throttle. The VStrom I rode was completely unremarkable until you started to climb up above 5000 RPM or so.
And if an SV1000 sounds like a rabid snarling beast, it sounds like one that was half drowned under 5 feet of water.
So be annoyed with Blake for not being the least bit diplomatic, but it sounds to me like all he is guilty of is doing exactly what you did.
All types are welcome here, and all riders. Some of us are masters of diplomacy, some are engineers  . Don't take it too personally. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 04:38 pm: |
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He has an aftermarket can on his SV, so it may very well snarl nicely. I sure enjoy hearing the melodic tones emanating from the SV650's at the track on race or track days. Sure is silly to compare an aftermarket exhaust note to the exhaust note of any stock bike and then offer the difference as a negative for said stock motorcycle. Either silly or disingenuous. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 04:39 pm: |
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Hey! I was trying to be diplomatic. Just not ultra-hyper-diplomatic.  |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 04:59 pm: |
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2hogs
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 07:56 pm: |
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I've said it before and will say it again.
Buell (and Harley) v-twins are not everyones cup of tea. But all is good as if we all liked the same things, looked the same etc -- planet Earth would be pretty boring. I have 2 Twin Cam Harleys and as I do my own maintenance, love the engines. From what I can see the Buell may be a little easier to maintain than those Harleys. That translates directly into more ride time for me.
So, I'm actually glad that some folks don't like the XB12X, once mine comes in next month, if I like it enough -- It will be easier to buy another.
Cheers |
Truk
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 09:25 pm: |
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2Hogs - How many days left before your "Precious" comes in? |
Justice
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 11:01 pm: |
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I have owned owned a v-four, inline twin(2stroke), and two inline fours. My last bike was a Kawi ZX-7R.
It didn't take me any time to get used to the v-twin in my '03 XB9R. The vibration is non existent once in motion and I love the shaking at idle. It seems like the engine is saying "Hey, let's go, come on..."
I think the engine has a boat load of "character". I like it so much, I wish the fun didn't stop at 7500 rpm.
The one friend I ride regularily with has a Triumph Daytona 955i. The other day we had switched bikes for a while. I was so happy to get back on my Buell, I actually found myself laughing out loud inside my helmet. No other bike I have owned or ridden has had that effect on me.
Now I'm saving up for one of the 2008 25th anniversary models. |
45_degrees
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 11:12 am: |
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I guess they weren't that "excited" to walk away or be turned off so easily.
Well, it's probably for the best... Imagine if whenever they had someone interested in the bike while they were stopped somewhere coming up to them to ask questions... "yeah, it's really nice, but I should let you know, the engine is horrible, so I don't recommend buying one unless you can tolerate it".  |
2hogs
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 07:58 pm: |
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Truk,
Seems like way too many, but should be here around the first or second week of Sept. Thanks for asking.
I can hardly wait. The Road Glide needs a primary seal replaced (don't like oil on the rear tire), and I've polished up the Train in case I decide to sell her, so I'm stuck driving the truck.
Justice,
2008 is the 25th anniversary? Looks like I'll be selling more stuff in anticipation of that!!!
Cheers |
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